Difference between revisions of "Talk:North American P-51 Mustang"

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:: But don't mind users with lower spec systems, they'll find a way. I've looked closer at the situation and decided to use the old version of the Mustang as an AI model and switch to another cool, powerful taildragger for flying.
 
:: But don't mind users with lower spec systems, they'll find a way. I've looked closer at the situation and decided to use the old version of the Mustang as an AI model and switch to another cool, powerful taildragger for flying.
 
::[[User:Flughund|Flughund]] ([[User talk:Flughund|talk]]) 16:55, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 
::[[User:Flughund|Flughund]] ([[User talk:Flughund|talk]]) 16:55, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
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 +
:: Hello
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:: So it looks like we have a volunteer to create an AI version of the exterior model or am I mistaken?  If users want things to get better they need to do more than complain.  After all I have put literally 10's of thousands of hours of work into this aircraft.  There have only been a few who have volunteered to help and most of them didn't do anything at all (other than waist my time).  Literally the only things in the current model that were produced by a volunteer are the rudder pedals and related linkage.  New rudder pedals will be made sometime soon based on factory blue prints (the existing ones are not very accurate) and I expect this to take perhaps 10 to 12 hours to do.  So volunteers are responsible for literally less than 0.1% of this aircraft.
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:: The new exterior model only affected my frame rates by about 5% compared to the old external model but I am running modern high end hardware but with the eye candy near max and I am still seeing frames rates > 55FPS and it often locks onto vsync, which is 60FPS, on a 2560x1600 display (IE. the resolution significantly increases the GPU load compared to a more normal monitor size) at high LOD airports.  I am also using the 8Kx8K textures rather then the default 2Kx2K textures.  So this is a worst case setup.
 +
 +
:: A suggestion that might help out.  How old is the version are you running?  The last version I pushed had texture sizes defaulted to 2Kx2K which should work on most hardware.  This setup was pushed only a few days ago so there is a significant possibility that you are using a version that predates this change.  Earlier versions have only 8Kx8K textures and these would definitely cripple older/lower end hardware even if, as is the case with your hardware/drivers, the 8k textures are supported.  The latest version is setup to allow you to change texture resolution/size although this does require you to do some manual file copying.  This is to allow users to adjust texture size to their hardware capabilities both high and low end.  You can choose 1K, 2K, 4K or 8K textures for both the livery and the effects textures - if you have 1K, 2K, 4K and 8K directories in the Models/Livery and Models/Effects/Textures directories you are using the 2K textures.  I have found that using the same resolution for both the effects textures and the livery textures seems to perform better on my hardware and look cleaner (IE. crisper details).  I have also found that even on my high end hardware that there is a noticeable increase in frame rate going from 8K to 4K textures but not going to lower resolution textures.  But again this is on very high end hardware so I would expect lower end hardware to show an even bigger frame rate hit with the large textures.  Lower end/older hardware might benefit from going all the way down to the 1K level but I don't have any way to test this.  However I did make it possible for users to select these lower resolution textures.
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:: The number of vertices in the exterior model is significantly higher than the old model at around 100K (the old one is about 15K) but compared to the scenery (which can have millions of vertices) this is a relatively small number.  From what I have read the 777 is slow on very high end hardware were as the frame rate hit of the P-51D on high end hardware is relatively small compared to the old exterior model.  So it is definitely "lighter" than the 777 or the Extra 500 but there is definitely older/lower end hardware that it not up to the job of running the new P-51D.  I don't know were the cutoff line is since I don't have a bunch of old hardware laying around to do testing on.  Also various versions of this have been in git for sometime now and one responsibility of users is to do testing well before the release date.  If this feedback had happened months ago there might have been time to test some things to see where the bottle neck is on low end hardware and make some adjustments.  At this late hour this will not be possible before the 3.2 release which is days away.  I am not saying that this can not be made to run better on lower end system only that it takes some effort and time to do that and this includes some effort from those with lower end hardware to help figure out what the issues are and to test fixes.  This is an on going issue in the FG community - IE. users with low end hardware complaining about performance but being unwilling to help resolve the issues.  Not saying that this applies to you and perhaps you are an exception to the rule.
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 +
:: As to your system hardware.  It is not even close to being "not close to high-end systems" although in it day it was "close to a high end system" and I think clearly stating that it is very old and by modern standards very low end is in order.  This is lower end hardware than I had 10 years ago so it definitely has it's limitations and may not be up to handling higher end models like the P-51D.  My older hardware would only run the FG v2.4 P-51D with the eye candy turned down significantly at around 25FPS when running FG 2.4 with scenery 1.0 and a 1600x1200 monitor.  This is just barely useable IMO.  Going from scenery 1.0 to 2.0 had a significant frame rate hit on my high end system and I shutter to think what it would have done to my old system. 
 +
 +
:: Aircraft devs (and the scenery devs as well) are caught between a rock and a hard place on this because one group of users is always complaining about aircraft (scenery) not being detailed/accurate enough and those with lower end hardware are always complaining that the high end aircraft (scenery) don't run well on their systems.  Basically users can have either detailed accurate models or models that run well on older/lower end hardware but having both is very difficult, at best, if not impossible.  After all none of us have magical powers and I can't just will your graphics card to have more CUDA cores.  Again there are likely some optimizations that can be done to the new P-51D to make it run on a wider range of hardware and I suspect that your hardware is very close to the line between can and can't be made to work OK.
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 +
:: On the other hand eventually you and other users with low end/old hardware will be replacing their systems and almost anything purchased to replace it, as long as it has at least a mid level graphics card, should run the P-51D nicely but perhaps not the 777 or Extra 500 and perhaps not with full eye candy.  Over time fewer and fewer users will have low end/older hardware and this is a major consideration for aircraft devs.  In fact at some point my hardware is likely to be considered old/low end so this is a cycle we all go through and at some point all of us need to do hardware upgrades even if we don't want to. 
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 +
:: Should I do a bunch of work to create something that works on low end/old hardware but is really not a big improvement over the existing models and that will eventually need to be redone or should I look to the future and make something that will hold up over a longer time frame and will run nicely on mid (IE. $100 graphics card) to high end current hardware?  After all I have over 600 hours into the new exterior model and it is still a work in progress (meaning it needs a lot of work to be "complete") - why would I do that much work to produce something that is not a big upgrade to the existing models? I started working on the new exterior model about 10 months ago so I will likely have 1 1/2 years into this effort before I consider it to be "done" and I have averaged close to 20 hours per week on this.  This is a huge undertaking that I don't want to repeat anytime soon.  In fact I think the current external model will hold up well for several decades and will likely out live me. 
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 +
:: Also I work for a software company and the software I work on is based on certain minimum hardware and system specs.  If the users hardware does not meet that minimum spec and they call in with an issue they are told to upgrade their hardware and system software as the first step in the support process.  That minimum spec is way newer and higher end than your hardware so expecting to run current high end software (which is more or less what the new P-51D is) on your hardware is not a realistic expectation and most commercial software companies support people would basically LOL and then tell you to upgrade your hardware if such a request is made.
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:: The wheel well details are only about 1% to 2% of the total vertices of the exterior model. These are all low poly models (some of these models are a few as 12 vertices for example).  The same thing is true for what holes exist in the exterior.  These are at most a few hundred vertices total and are well under 1% of the vertices in the model.  So these things will have almost no impact on frame rate.
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 +
:: As has been pointed out on the forums many times there is nothing stopping users with low end hardware from using older lighter models like the 3.0 P-51D model which will run just fine on FG 3.2 or FG 2.4 or anything i between.  Just download it from the 3.0 aircraft page and install it in place of the new one. You can do this going all the way back to 2.4 aircraft if you need to. "however wouldn't it be possible to preserve the old version" yes it has been preserved just get it from the right location and install it as has been pointed on the forum MANY MANY times.  But maintaining the old version in place beside the new work is something I will not do as it significantly increases the maintenance overhead for no reason and in the process slows down the rate at which improvements can be made. 
 +
 +
:: If you are limited to running very old hardware (for what ever reason) then you should be aware that you may have to run older software that is suited to that hardware.  That applies to many things in addition to FlightGear aircraft.  From a flying point of view there is very little difference between the 3.0 version and the 3.2 version of the P-51D since the FDM, systems and cockpit are almost exactly the same although all of these have had some, mostly minor, changes for 3.2.  After all the upgrade project is aimed at the exterior model. Future plans do include significant upgrades to the cockpit to make it more accurate (probably about the same LOD however) since the current cockpit models are more or less eye balled from photos rather than being based on factory blue prints and are not very accurate.  I would also be interested in how the 3.0 version runs on your hardware since it appears that you have not run the older versions based on you comments.  IE. is the older version really 2 to 3 times as fast on your hardware?
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 +
:: If you are actually interested in helping out let me know and we will figure how to make that possible.  Even if it is just to be a "low end system" tester something that FG needs way more of in general if low end systems are going to be supported going forward.  After all we can't fix the issues with low end systems if the people with these systems refuse to help with diagnostics and testing.
 +
 +
:: Also I experienced a lot of issues with the Blender to ac3d exporter and one of these has to do with parented objects not being correctly exported (IE. the export moved and rotated these objects in what appeared to be random ways).  As a result, currently, the objects involved in the livery stuff are not correctly parented.  I know that this has some performance implications.  I would like to figure out a good way to fix this but so far have not been able to locate the information needed to do this is a way that is not a huge amount of work (to redo work that I already did).  This could have a significant impact on users with low end systems but on my system it seems to impact how long it takes to start up the sim and how long it takes to switch liveries.  There is a rumor that the solution to this issue was talked about on the dev list but I have not been able to locate this information.  If anyone knows how to solve this issue please let me know.
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--[[User:Hvengel|Hvengel]] ([[User talk:hvengel|talk]])

Revision as of 19:30, 10 August 2014

Congratulations!
This is a really good looking and very detailed aircraft. Though it's unusable on not close to high-end systems. It's cutting FG's frame rate to 10 to 15 fps where it normally has more than 30. Even worse, it not even has a downgraded version in AI/Aircraft. If some other pilot shows up on MP with the p51d my FG suffers from the worst lags ever, making it completely unusable.

$ du -hs Aircraft/p51d/
1.1G    Aircraft/p51d/

What the frell!? FG is a simulator which renders the scene in real-time not an animated 3D movie which has 25 times the time to calculate rendering. I am not able to comment on the fdm. Even though it might be good, any fdm goes bad at that frame rate.
Flughund (talk) 12:32, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Calm down! Hal V. Engel made several announcements about the heaviness of this aircraft. And compared with other aircraft like 777, computer perfomance is even equal.
Compared with commercial sims like X-Plane and FSFX vertice numbers and details are even in a similar range. Nethertheless, some optimations is always appreciated.
What are your computer specs?

--HHS (talk) 15:24, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Heiko, thanks for the reply.
Don't worry, I am way too lazy to be really upset, just expressed my disappointment of not being able to fly the p51d anymore and that it kills the MP fun when another pilot shows up with it. Specs of my system can be found here. Anything but up to date, I know, though I am certain there are many FG users with an even less powerful one.
I can see why people do want eye-candy, however wouldn't it be possible to preserve the old version? Btw, comparing it to other overdone models or even other sims is not something I count as a criterion. I am not a 3D modeler so I am not really able to make suggestions on how to improve the model. But is it really necessary to model every single tiny detail? Like little holes in the fuselage or the interior of the gear housing. Most of those details can be done by a good texture.
But don't mind users with lower spec systems, they'll find a way. I've looked closer at the situation and decided to use the old version of the Mustang as an AI model and switch to another cool, powerful taildragger for flying.
Flughund (talk) 16:55, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello
So it looks like we have a volunteer to create an AI version of the exterior model or am I mistaken? If users want things to get better they need to do more than complain. After all I have put literally 10's of thousands of hours of work into this aircraft. There have only been a few who have volunteered to help and most of them didn't do anything at all (other than waist my time). Literally the only things in the current model that were produced by a volunteer are the rudder pedals and related linkage. New rudder pedals will be made sometime soon based on factory blue prints (the existing ones are not very accurate) and I expect this to take perhaps 10 to 12 hours to do. So volunteers are responsible for literally less than 0.1% of this aircraft.
The new exterior model only affected my frame rates by about 5% compared to the old external model but I am running modern high end hardware but with the eye candy near max and I am still seeing frames rates > 55FPS and it often locks onto vsync, which is 60FPS, on a 2560x1600 display (IE. the resolution significantly increases the GPU load compared to a more normal monitor size) at high LOD airports. I am also using the 8Kx8K textures rather then the default 2Kx2K textures. So this is a worst case setup.
A suggestion that might help out. How old is the version are you running? The last version I pushed had texture sizes defaulted to 2Kx2K which should work on most hardware. This setup was pushed only a few days ago so there is a significant possibility that you are using a version that predates this change. Earlier versions have only 8Kx8K textures and these would definitely cripple older/lower end hardware even if, as is the case with your hardware/drivers, the 8k textures are supported. The latest version is setup to allow you to change texture resolution/size although this does require you to do some manual file copying. This is to allow users to adjust texture size to their hardware capabilities both high and low end. You can choose 1K, 2K, 4K or 8K textures for both the livery and the effects textures - if you have 1K, 2K, 4K and 8K directories in the Models/Livery and Models/Effects/Textures directories you are using the 2K textures. I have found that using the same resolution for both the effects textures and the livery textures seems to perform better on my hardware and look cleaner (IE. crisper details). I have also found that even on my high end hardware that there is a noticeable increase in frame rate going from 8K to 4K textures but not going to lower resolution textures. But again this is on very high end hardware so I would expect lower end hardware to show an even bigger frame rate hit with the large textures. Lower end/older hardware might benefit from going all the way down to the 1K level but I don't have any way to test this. However I did make it possible for users to select these lower resolution textures.
The number of vertices in the exterior model is significantly higher than the old model at around 100K (the old one is about 15K) but compared to the scenery (which can have millions of vertices) this is a relatively small number. From what I have read the 777 is slow on very high end hardware were as the frame rate hit of the P-51D on high end hardware is relatively small compared to the old exterior model. So it is definitely "lighter" than the 777 or the Extra 500 but there is definitely older/lower end hardware that it not up to the job of running the new P-51D. I don't know were the cutoff line is since I don't have a bunch of old hardware laying around to do testing on. Also various versions of this have been in git for sometime now and one responsibility of users is to do testing well before the release date. If this feedback had happened months ago there might have been time to test some things to see where the bottle neck is on low end hardware and make some adjustments. At this late hour this will not be possible before the 3.2 release which is days away. I am not saying that this can not be made to run better on lower end system only that it takes some effort and time to do that and this includes some effort from those with lower end hardware to help figure out what the issues are and to test fixes. This is an on going issue in the FG community - IE. users with low end hardware complaining about performance but being unwilling to help resolve the issues. Not saying that this applies to you and perhaps you are an exception to the rule.
As to your system hardware. It is not even close to being "not close to high-end systems" although in it day it was "close to a high end system" and I think clearly stating that it is very old and by modern standards very low end is in order. This is lower end hardware than I had 10 years ago so it definitely has it's limitations and may not be up to handling higher end models like the P-51D. My older hardware would only run the FG v2.4 P-51D with the eye candy turned down significantly at around 25FPS when running FG 2.4 with scenery 1.0 and a 1600x1200 monitor. This is just barely useable IMO. Going from scenery 1.0 to 2.0 had a significant frame rate hit on my high end system and I shutter to think what it would have done to my old system.
Aircraft devs (and the scenery devs as well) are caught between a rock and a hard place on this because one group of users is always complaining about aircraft (scenery) not being detailed/accurate enough and those with lower end hardware are always complaining that the high end aircraft (scenery) don't run well on their systems. Basically users can have either detailed accurate models or models that run well on older/lower end hardware but having both is very difficult, at best, if not impossible. After all none of us have magical powers and I can't just will your graphics card to have more CUDA cores. Again there are likely some optimizations that can be done to the new P-51D to make it run on a wider range of hardware and I suspect that your hardware is very close to the line between can and can't be made to work OK.
On the other hand eventually you and other users with low end/old hardware will be replacing their systems and almost anything purchased to replace it, as long as it has at least a mid level graphics card, should run the P-51D nicely but perhaps not the 777 or Extra 500 and perhaps not with full eye candy. Over time fewer and fewer users will have low end/older hardware and this is a major consideration for aircraft devs. In fact at some point my hardware is likely to be considered old/low end so this is a cycle we all go through and at some point all of us need to do hardware upgrades even if we don't want to.
Should I do a bunch of work to create something that works on low end/old hardware but is really not a big improvement over the existing models and that will eventually need to be redone or should I look to the future and make something that will hold up over a longer time frame and will run nicely on mid (IE. $100 graphics card) to high end current hardware? After all I have over 600 hours into the new exterior model and it is still a work in progress (meaning it needs a lot of work to be "complete") - why would I do that much work to produce something that is not a big upgrade to the existing models? I started working on the new exterior model about 10 months ago so I will likely have 1 1/2 years into this effort before I consider it to be "done" and I have averaged close to 20 hours per week on this. This is a huge undertaking that I don't want to repeat anytime soon. In fact I think the current external model will hold up well for several decades and will likely out live me.
Also I work for a software company and the software I work on is based on certain minimum hardware and system specs. If the users hardware does not meet that minimum spec and they call in with an issue they are told to upgrade their hardware and system software as the first step in the support process. That minimum spec is way newer and higher end than your hardware so expecting to run current high end software (which is more or less what the new P-51D is) on your hardware is not a realistic expectation and most commercial software companies support people would basically LOL and then tell you to upgrade your hardware if such a request is made.
The wheel well details are only about 1% to 2% of the total vertices of the exterior model. These are all low poly models (some of these models are a few as 12 vertices for example). The same thing is true for what holes exist in the exterior. These are at most a few hundred vertices total and are well under 1% of the vertices in the model. So these things will have almost no impact on frame rate.
As has been pointed out on the forums many times there is nothing stopping users with low end hardware from using older lighter models like the 3.0 P-51D model which will run just fine on FG 3.2 or FG 2.4 or anything i between. Just download it from the 3.0 aircraft page and install it in place of the new one. You can do this going all the way back to 2.4 aircraft if you need to. "however wouldn't it be possible to preserve the old version" yes it has been preserved just get it from the right location and install it as has been pointed on the forum MANY MANY times. But maintaining the old version in place beside the new work is something I will not do as it significantly increases the maintenance overhead for no reason and in the process slows down the rate at which improvements can be made.
If you are limited to running very old hardware (for what ever reason) then you should be aware that you may have to run older software that is suited to that hardware. That applies to many things in addition to FlightGear aircraft. From a flying point of view there is very little difference between the 3.0 version and the 3.2 version of the P-51D since the FDM, systems and cockpit are almost exactly the same although all of these have had some, mostly minor, changes for 3.2. After all the upgrade project is aimed at the exterior model. Future plans do include significant upgrades to the cockpit to make it more accurate (probably about the same LOD however) since the current cockpit models are more or less eye balled from photos rather than being based on factory blue prints and are not very accurate. I would also be interested in how the 3.0 version runs on your hardware since it appears that you have not run the older versions based on you comments. IE. is the older version really 2 to 3 times as fast on your hardware?
If you are actually interested in helping out let me know and we will figure how to make that possible. Even if it is just to be a "low end system" tester something that FG needs way more of in general if low end systems are going to be supported going forward. After all we can't fix the issues with low end systems if the people with these systems refuse to help with diagnostics and testing.
Also I experienced a lot of issues with the Blender to ac3d exporter and one of these has to do with parented objects not being correctly exported (IE. the export moved and rotated these objects in what appeared to be random ways). As a result, currently, the objects involved in the livery stuff are not correctly parented. I know that this has some performance implications. I would like to figure out a good way to fix this but so far have not been able to locate the information needed to do this is a way that is not a huge amount of work (to redo work that I already did). This could have a significant impact on users with low end systems but on my system it seems to impact how long it takes to start up the sim and how long it takes to switch liveries. There is a rumor that the solution to this issue was talked about on the dev list but I have not been able to locate this information. If anyone knows how to solve this issue please let me know.

--Hvengel (talk)