Hi fellow wiki editors!

To help newly registered users get more familiar with the wiki (and maybe older users too) there is now a {{Welcome to the wiki}} template. Have a look at it and feel free to add it to new users discussion pages (and perhaps your own).

I have tried to keep the template short, but meaningful. /Johan G

Difference between revisions of "FlightGear wiki:Village pump"

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(Disambiguating the two Space Shuttle pages: Late reply. "Space Shuttle" and "Space Shuttle (FG Space Program)" sounds good)
m (Automated translation for the wikipedia template: Spelling in own post)
 
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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]], [[/Archive 2013|2013]], [[/Archive 2014|2014]]}}
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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]]|[[/Archive 2013|2013]]|[[/Archive 2014|2014]]|[[/Archive 2015|2015]]|[[/Archive 2016|2016]]|[[/Archive 2017|2017]]|[[/Archive 2018|2018]]}}
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{{shortcut|FGW:VP}}
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Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
 
Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
  
: Please [{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics] to the '''bottom''' of this page.
+
Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
  
: Old discussion should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
+
Old discussions should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
  
----
+
== Welcoming template ==
 +
I have had a shelved draft of a welcoming template laying in a subpage for quite a while that I have dusted off and rewritten.
  
== Navigation links added to FlightGear Newsletter header ==
+
It has a welcoming message and some links I hope will be useful to new users (and perhaps not so new ones as well).  The idea is that when some of us sees that there is a new user we will add that template to the top of the new users discussion page.  I am not sure about whether we should wait till the user have made some edits (to see if it is a bot) or if we should add it at once.
  
As per [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=25104 request by Michat on the forum] I have now managed to add navigation links to the FlightGear Newsletter header, {{tl|Newsletter-header}}, pointing to the previous and next months newsletter.
+
I would like to have some more eyes on it to see for example if I should have some more or some less links, or if there is something I did not think of.  I tried to use as few links as possible, while also keeping ones a new user might hope is there, but do not know where to look for.
  
So far I have only added it to the latest header though.
+
When I feel content with it I will move it to the template namespace and add a site notice linking to it for a while, as I am not sure if you all look here or on [[Special:RecentChanges]].
  
Happy browsing! :-)
+
<s>Anyway here is my current draft (do not hesitate to add suggestions on its discussion page): User:Johan G/Template:Welcome to the wiki</s>
  
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 19:48, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 13:02, 15 April 2019 (EDT)
  
 +
:: The template is now moved to {{tl|Welcome to the wiki}}
 +
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 18:19, 17 April 2019 (EDT)
  
: Looking into the older template, {{tl|Newsletter}}, I have seen a fundamental difference.  The new one, {{tl|Newsletter-header}}, uses a parameter, '''edition''', that I have used to get working links to the previous and following editions.
+
: Hi Johan,
 +
: The template looks good to me!
 +
: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 06:48, 16 April 2019 (EDT)
  
: It seems that a similar behavior can not be added to the older template without adding a similar parameter to it and all older editions of the newsletterI simply can not figure out a way to parse the page name into a date. :-\
+
: It looks good to me tooWhat about using [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Create_User_Page Extension:Create User Page] to fully automate the process?
 +
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 09:57, 16 April 2019 (EDT)
  
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:05, 23 May 2015 (EDT)
+
:: If you mean as in automatically creating a user discussion page and adding the welcome template?  Though it would probably be a good idea, as likely no one will be left without a welcome, it kind of feels better if it is done by a being of flesh and blood than if it was done by a bot.  Consider me undecided. ;-)
 +
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 18:13, 17 April 2019 (EDT)
  
== MediaWiki updated to 1.24.1 ==
+
::: It is a worry that the automation will not seem personal.  However I just counted the [[Special:Log/newusers|new user registrations]] from 17/04/2018 to 17/04/2019. There are 113 registrations!  Maybe 5% are not bots, but identifying these is hard.  I think it will be too overwhelming for any individual to manually do this.
  
I've updated MediaWiki to the latest stable release (1.24.1) today. There is a small issue with some of the extensions not displaying icons, so some of them have been disabled for the moment. I hope to have them re-enabled later today. Please report bugs if you find any. For a list of changes, see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Release_notes/1.24
+
::: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 01:43, 18 April 2019 (EDT)
  
[[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 12:00, 1 February 2015 (EST)
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:::: One registration every second day.  Automation might not be such a bad idea after all.
 +
:::: I noticed though that [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Create_User_Page Extension:Create User Page] does not create the user ''discussion'' page, which is where such messageboxes typically are placed. Maybe not a big problem.
 +
:::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 12:46, 19 April 2019 (EDT)
  
: It seems that Nasal syntax highlighting via Geshi is no longer working (I think it was Philosopher who came up with the module...)?
+
:::: A site notice is now up with the text "Hi fellow wiki users!
: --[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 15:58, 1 February 2015 (EST)
+
  
:: Ah, didn't move that one over. Should be fixed now.
+
:::: To help new users get more familiar with the wiki (and maybe older users too) there is now a {{tl|Welcome to the wiki}} template. Have a look at it and feel free to add it to new users discussion pages (and perhaps your own).
:: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 16:19, 1 February 2015 (EST)
+
  
::: Confirmed fixed.  Thank you for the quick fix. :-D
+
:::: I have tried to keep the template short, but meaningful. /{{usr|Johan G}}"
::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 16:49, 1 February 2015 (EST)
+
  
== Support SVG file ==
+
:::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 06:13, 26 April 2019 (EDT)
  
Is there some securty issues/software limitations (no plugin's installed) why the wiki don't support uploads of SVG images?
+
I just noticed [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NewUserMessage Extension:NewUserMessage] which seems perfectly suited to be used the way Bugman mentioned  [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Create_User_Page Extension:Create User Page] above on 16 April. This extension automatically creates a discussion page with a message for new users.
 +
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:44, 22 June 2019 (EDT)
  
[[User:Www2|Www2]] ([[User talk:Www2|talk]]) 21:02, 4 February 2015 (EST)
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: I think we should really use such an extension.  There are just too many new user subscriptions to do this manually (and my experience from [http://wiki.nmr-relax.com/ my own wiki] is that 99% of subscriptions are failed bots).  I say install it asap.  It would really benefit real new users who might be lost under the load of failed bot registrations.  Can you install it yourself Johan?
  
== If you find missing images ==
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: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 03:50, 2 July 2019 (EDT)
  
In case you find missing images have a look at this page: [[FlightGear wiki:Missing images]].
+
:: No, I can not install wiki extensions (I am a wiki admin just like you).  Simon, the maintainer, can for sure do it and I think that maybe Gijs could do do it.
 +
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:21, 4 July 2019 (EDT)
  
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 23:51, 7 February 2015 (EST)
+
:: Sent a mail to Gijs and Simon, with a copy to you.
 +
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 12:24, 4 July 2019 (EDT)
  
== Additional Portals ==
+
=== Adding it to all user discussion pages? ===
Given the recent interest in doing embedded development related to FlightGear (Arduino/Rasberry PI), I was thinking that we might want to introduce dedicated portals for such use-cases,  to keep things neatly organized, but also to provide a place to grow this further - e.g. depending on how this goes, we could have portals covering:
+
I have started to wonder if we maybe should add the template to all of the user discussion pages (but not archived ones of course).
* Embedded/Hardware (including cockpit building)
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* UAVs
+
  
Equally, we may want to provide sub-forums for these two topics, which should help clean up the offtopic/development forum, too. Currently, the SUPPORT/HARDWARE forum is being used for many of these topics, even though that was originally intended for joysticks/yokes and pedals related stuff - not custom hardware, which would fit better under DEVELOPMENT in my opinon.
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What would be the advantages and disadvantages of that.  Personally I see more advantages than disadvantages with that.
  
As far as I can tell there are roughly 10-15 contributors actively exploring embedded development including UAV stuff - so I guess it would be a good idea for the project (i.e. the forum and the wiki) to provide some structure to "house" such efforts.
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This would be a bot job of course.
  
thoughts/ideas ?
+
[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 08:50, 21 June 2019 (EDT)
--[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 06:17, 10 February 2015 (EST)
+
  
== Wiki extensions observations ==
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== The lead section, or first section, as I have called it ==
 +
Most of the time when I have been writing help pages I have tried to use the terminology used on Wikipedia and its sister projects, but somehow I have called the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section&oldid=895095452 lead section] (or ''lead'' or ''introduction'') ''first section'' and done that consistently.  I have gone through the help pages and changed that.
  
Hi all,
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 08:56, 23 May 2019 (EDT)
  
Recently I was looking at the [[Special:Version#Installed extensions|installed extensions]], and noticed the below:
 
  
; [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SmoothGallery SmoothGallery]
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== Automated translation for the wikipedia template ==
: It appears that it doesn't work anymore on this wiki.  For instance, the below code …
+
<nowiki><sgallery>
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Glass01.jpg
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Glass07.jpg
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Glass11.jpg
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</sgallery></nowiki>
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: … causes the following error:
+
  
: Notice: Undefined variable: args in /home/wiki/wiki/extensions/SmoothGallery/SmoothGallery.php on line 113 Fatal error: Call to undefined method LocalFile::getThumbnail() in /home/wiki/wiki/extensions/SmoothGallery/SmoothGalleryParser.php on line 208
+
Just for the record, I attempted to modify {{tl|wikipedia}} to automatically determine the page language and point to the non-english Wikipedia page without the {{param|lang}} parameter.  I have recently added the {{param|wikipedia}} parameter to {{tl|infobox aircraft}} and was hoping to use the language auto-detection to have the wikipedia infobox link point to the correct translation at Wikipedia.  I could not use <code>{{obr}}PAGELANGUAGE{{cbr}}</code> as this required MediaWiki >= 1.29 (see [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Technical_metadata]).  So I unsuccessfully attempted to use the same logic as the {{tl|LangSwitch}} parameter.  I reverted all changes as there appears to be no way to correctly detect the page language (other than wait for the next MediaWiki upgrade to expose <code>{{obr}}PAGELANGUAGE{{cbr}}</code>).
  
: This could be related to extension's [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SmoothGallery#Fixing_bugs bugs].
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[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 05:51, 24 May 2019 (EDT)
  
: I suggest this extension be removed because
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: Note that this means that the aircraft infobox wikipedia link can only point to the English page until an upgrade occurs (this is not urgent though).
# As far as I know, it's not used on any of the wiki's pages.
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# Is it needed?
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# Its ''unstable'' as of 22 March, 2015, which means it's broken and shouldn't be used ([http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_status link]).
+
  
; [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EmbedVideo EmbedVideo]
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: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 06:01, 24 May 2019 (EDT)
: According to the [http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Extension:EmbedVideo&oldid=1447164 page revision as of 16 March 2015], there were XSS flaws in version 2.2.4 and earlier of the extension.  It should probably be updated to the latest revision.
+
  
[[User:Red_Leader|<span style="color:red">'''''Red Leader'''''</span>]] ([[User_talk:Red_Leader|Talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Red_Leader|contribs]]) 14:08, 22 March 2015 (EDT)
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:: <code><nowiki>{{lc: {{#titleparts: {{PAGENAME}} | 1}} }}</nowiki></code> should return the language code needed for the '''lang=''' parameter.
  
: Both are done. Thanks for reporting!
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:: Note that you will only be able to pull this of where the article title is ''exactly the same'' in another language. If a model for example have have another name in one country (like cars sometimes have) the link will fail.  If the title is transcribed the link will fail.  Etc.
: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 17:21, 24 March 2015 (EDT)
+
  
== Boeing 777 Cleanup ==
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:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 07:16, 24 May 2019 (EDT)
  
Just wrapping up cleaning up Boeing 777 articles that I discussed a full year ago. All now redirect centrally to that page. This makes for a lot less segregated wiki. Looking at it, it would appear that very little happens on the individual pages and the content on them is relatively insignificant. The stuff that is needed I copied over to the main page. Will try to add some pictures as well.
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== Expansion of the upload licence list and uploading errors ==
  
If anybody has any objections, speak up :)
+
I've always been concerned that we do not present enough licence choices for the graphics uploaded to the wiki.  In testing this, I've noticed that I can no longer upload graphics to the wiki!  I see a red exclamation mark and the text <code>Unknown error: "unknown"</code>, <code>None of the uploads were successful.</code>, the button <code>Retry failed uploads</code>, and <code>0 of 1 file uploaded</code>.  Has any one else seen this?
  
 +
Also, is there a reason we don't update [[MediaWiki:Licenses]]?  I think I'll add the CC v4.0 licenses so those can be selected.  I'll probably also add the GPL.
  
: It would be really useful to merge the pages ''if'' the aircraft are similar in many ways, for example:
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[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 04:22, 27 May 2019 (EDT)
:* All part of the same aircraft package
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:* Same or similar usage, for example
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:** Keyboard shortcuts
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:** Custom dialogs
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:** Clickable cockpit interfaces
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:* Same levels of system modeling
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: If they could be handled pretty much the same way and was part of the same aircraft package I don't think I would have any objections.
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: However, if they differ a lot in the areas mentioned above I think it would not be a good idea to merge the pages; the aircraft would be dissimilar enough that the page would have to be uncomfortably long and possibly confusing if it were to describe the different workings.
+
 
+
: If they are not part of the same aircraft package, looking into the similarities and differences and slowly work towards integrating them into the same aircraft package could also bee a good idea.
+
 
+
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 07:48, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Aircraft Page Organization ==
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I just started a [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=26161 topic] over on the forum on how posts are organized if somebody has input.
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+
{{unsigned|11:45, 5 May 2015|Manfred}}
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+
 
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: I think it would probably be better to discuss the quality and organization of the wiki right here (on this very page) than on the forum.
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: The main two reasons for that is (1) to keep the wiki quality discussions here and (2) that it would be a bit more transparent to do it that way.
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: The transparency is important in that it would make it easier to later look into ''why'' things were decided to be in a certain way and ''who'' said ''what'' and ''when''.
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+
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 08:07, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
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+
Alright, so here goes:
+
 
+
By the nature of FlightGear, multiple people might work on different projects covering the same areas. For instance, there are 2 different projects covering the Boeing 787. This makes overview and indexing very difficult. Wikipedia is designed to only really have one article on a topic (i.e. aircraft) that can be extended.
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For instance:
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{{Airbus}}
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It is dreadfully unclear on the overview of aircraft. In my opinion, it would make more sense to get an disambiguation page on the various 'packages' that contain the A319 for instance. The multiple entries greatly diminishes the value of the list.
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+
Here are a few ideas:
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* '''Give aircraft a codeword or project name.''' For instance, the Boeing 787 (Dream Project) or Boeing 787 (GPL Project) to distinguish between them. Then list them like that in the index as well. When you both have a --aircraft= A319 and A319-131, what are you going to do when the next person comes around and wants to design an A319? It would make more sense to migrate to a structure of say B787-8-Dream and B787-8-GPL. If you make a piece of software, you're not going to go calling your software 'Conference Manager', with the next person making the similar stuff calling it 'Conference Manager 2', but rather ConferenceTime and and ConferenceMaster. Naming your work after aircraft in the current way gets bloody confusing.
+
 
+
* I imagine that perhaps as a bit of a continuation of the above, '''people try to distinguish between their models by giving them very specific names, such as Boeing 707-338'''. I realize that people want to work on it themselves, but from a broader perspective, how much technical difference is there really between these? The A319 should also work with the corresponding changes as a A320- it is an identical cockpit and much the same fuselage. IMHO, it should have been filed as an A320 instead with only one model, an A319. As for the Boeing, give it a codeword, such as Boeing 707 (Qantas Project). It even makes it more marketable.
+
 
+
* '''Clearly distinguish between current and past development in the template''', i.e. add a new index on the left that contains both categories. I find that not doing any work on the model in five years qualifies for past development.
+
 
+
The ability to grow is proportional to the ability to handle the increase in information. While this perhaps happens mostly on aircraft articles, what happens if somebody wants a fresh start on that airport scenery? How does he name the page and organize it in relation to the current one? It would have been easier to name both after some town landmark so one the second one came around, you could easily categorise them.
+
 
+
In a nutshell:
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* Give all aircraft projects a name after the aircraft type ("Boeing 787"+ Phoenix, Dream, Toulouse...+ Project) to distinguish between individual development.
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* Sort all aircraft by model type (i.e. A320) rather than the sub-model being worked on (i.e. A319).
+
 
+
[[User:Manfred|Manfred]] ([[User talk:Manfred|talk]]) 11:56, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
 
+
: You have several good points there.  I have some thoughts on them (note that this this is only my opinions).
+
:; Disambiguation pages:  This could probably be used on an aircraft type level basis.  For example describing the Boeing 777 in general and short descriptions of the 'subtypes' and links to pages with them and any different variants. To some extent this could be given a standardized look by using templates.
+
:: I think these could be very useful, and I wish there was some of them.
+
:; The navigation template:  Dreadful at least to some extent.  I have more than once found them a bit inconsistent and confusing (in particular when looking like the one you showed here).  Could probably be remade quite a bit, possibly following the structure I outlined in the point above.
+
:; Project names:  I have noted that a few projects have had names, for example the ''Lake of Constance Boeing 707'' or the ''Seattle'' (though I embarrassingly do not remember what aircraft type that was).
+
:; Distinguish between past and current development:  Probably a good idea.  Could possibly be done with color coded backgrounds for the aircraft type text and color coding of the development state field in the aircraft infobox.
+
 
+
: Some additional thoughts:
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:* I guess the navigation templates could also be link to the aircraft disambiguation pages when needed.
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:* Setting up a style manual for the disambiguation pages and navigation templates would probably be a good idea.  It should not be done before some time of experimentation though.
+
 
+
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 12:40, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
===Action Plan===
+
 
+
It's good to see that we are on the same page. To complete this:
+
 
+
* I propose that we start with the Boeing aircraft as a model project.
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* We need a name structure for all aircraft that is universal and unique. Otherwise the reorganization will be in vain. As suggested earlier, along the lines of [Manufacturer, Model, Project Name]. The problem is that last one. I called the 787 'GPL' and 'Dreamliner' but I don't like any of those and would much rather give them something that is really not connected to any other aircraft of the name it itself. I'd propose 'Seattle' and 'Firebird' but I don't want to go renaming all the aircraft myself. I think it's something the developers should come up with. The aircraft would not be renamed A319 Toulouse Project, because the fact that it is an A319 is insignificant in that it uses much the same fuselage and identical cockpit as the A320. Only a significant model code should be included. Less of a problem with Boeing but this has to work everywhere.
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* I am really not sure about putting the background history on a separate page and I'm tempted to say we should leave that to Wikipedia. I think it would be better just to make it to a disambiguation page.
+
 
+
[[User:Manfred|Manfred]] ([[User talk:Manfred|talk]]) 16:38, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
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+
 
+
: For the disambiguation pages I was more thinking along the lines of for example [[Boeing 707]] ([http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Boeing_707&oldid=63942 permalink]) and [[Boeing 747]] ([http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Boeing_747&oldid=62527 permalink]), but with maybe shorter general descriptions and a one-liner or short paragraph describing each variant. An [[User:Johan G/Aircraft series|early draft of one possible way]] to do it have been added to my [[User:Johan G/In my sandbox|sandbox]].
+
 
+
: To my slight frustration the {{tl|Boeing}} template is more consistent and logical than the {{tl|Airbus}} template (in essence less 'messy').  Some of my thoughts on how to improve it (and probably other ones as well) turned into a puff of smoke when I saw it.
+
 
+
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 09:53, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
:: While I do agree that disambiguation pages are an important step on the way, they are not the solution to the problem. People working on very similar aircraft differentiate their by minimalistic changes in their model name, but this is subject to change as people add different variations of that aircraft based off the same cockpit for instance. It has to be 'robust' in that regard. That is why the unique identifier in the form of a 'project name' or an equivalent solution is necessary, especially for the Airbus aircraft as can be seen. Even if there's only one model at the moment, since there's no harm in doing so because somebody might come along and start some new work. But giving them a name only here won't be very clear and would ideally occur for all use 'globally' in FlightGear.
+
 
+
:: [[User:Manfred|Manfred]] ([[User talk:Manfred|talk]]) 12:18, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
 
+
::: I can only agree to that the disambiguation pages are not the solution.  Regarding those I am rather thinking of consistent style and intuitive navigation (as in more effortless for the reader).
+
 
+
::: Ideally (as in an utopia) aircraft should be merged or better ones replace older ones, at least in regard to the official aircraft (in essence those available from the download page).  But waiting for the utopia differentiating between them using project names is probably the best way.
+
 
+
::: Maybe we <s>&ensp;could&ensp;</s> should encourage people to use project names in those cases when they can not merge aircraft (for example due to licenses etc).  Using project names consistently, as you seem to suggest, is would probably work well.  Also, people tend to copy other peoples way of doing things.
+
 
+
::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 12:52, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Bug report specific article(s) ==
+
To my surprise there is no [[Submitting bug reports]] article (or [[Responding to bug reports]] for that matter), and I remind myself that the relevant information is spread throughout the wiki instead of being summed up in one place.
+
 
+
Some things to consider when writing it (kind of a 'note to self' for now):
+
 
+
* The bug reports themselves:
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** What bugs should be reported where?
+
*** FlightGear itself
+
*** Aircraft, vehicles etc.
+
*** Airports
+
*** Scenery
+
** What information might be needed?
+
** What kind of responses should be expected?
+
 
+
* Target groups?
+
** Non-native English speaking computer novices?
+
** Regular FlightGear users?
+
** FlightGear developers?
+
 
+
* Concepts could also be borrowed from from:
+
** Eric Steven Raymond, [http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html How To Ask Questions The Smart Way]
+
** Amy Hoy, [http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/ Help Vampires: A Spotter’s Guide], in particular the section ''Reforming the Help Vampire''
+
** Karl Fogel, Producing Open Source Software, [http://producingoss.com/en/bug-tracker.html Bug Tracker]
+
 
+
* Last, but not least:  What formal and informal guidelines, rules and procedures do we actually have?
+
 
+
It would be quite preferable from a maintenance perspective to have that information gathered to only a few places and only describe the concepts briefly before linking to those articles, also from the forum and mailing list (in essence DRY – Don't Repeat Yourself).
+
 
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 18:23, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Most helicopter screenshots are now categorized ==
+
 
+
With some few exceptions all helicopter screenshots are now categorized in [[:Category:Screenshots of helicopters]] and its subcategories.  ''Tip: Test clicking the blue triangles.  ;-)''
+
 
+
What I am trying to achieve is to separate files and articles and to put the files into a browseable category structure (sort of like a tree with some spider webs here and there between the branches).  That way they should be easier to find for example when looking for the next [[:Category:Picture of the week|picture of the week]] or a good illustration for an article.
+
 
+
The exception is the files that have gotten a [[:Category:Copyright statuses|license category]], but is not categorized in any other relevant category, are not used in an article and/or does not have a descriptive file name.
+
 
+
:''See also [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2014#Having separate image categories or not?]] ([http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_wiki:Village_pump/Archive_2014&oldid=81713#Having_separate_image_categories_or_not.3F permalink])''
+
 
+
I am ''very'' slowly working on adding {{tl|file information}} templates, descriptions, links and categories to uncategorized files, with the long term goal of not having any files that not can be found by browsing logical and consistent categories.
+
 
+
Good file names, descriptions, categories and internal linking are all four good 'white hat' search engine optimization (SEO) strategies, in essence making it easier to find what you are looking for.  Be that using the wiki's search engine or an external one such as Google search.
+
 
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 07:00, 14 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Disambiguating the two Space Shuttle pages ==
+
 
+
I would like to hear some ideas of how to disambiguate the two Space Shuttle articles, [[Space Shuttle]] originally about the 3D model-less FGData Space Shuttle re-entry FDM but now about the shuttle by the [[FlightGear space program]], and [[SpaceShuttle - Project Overview‎]] modified from that one.
+
 
+
Preferably they could be differentiated by different project names or something like that.
+
 
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 12:22, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
+
 
+
: Hi Johan,
+
: My two cents are as follows ('''HW''' = HerbyW Space Shuttle, '''TH''' = Thorsten Space Shuttle):
+
:{| class="wikitable" width="75%"
+
! Shuttle variant !! Suggestion !! Comments
+
|-
+
| HW
+
| Space Shuttle (FlightGear Space Program)
+
| Too long?
+
|-
+
| HW
+
| Space Shuttle (FG Space Program)
+
| Again, too long?
+
|-
+
| HW
+
| Space Shuttle (Space Program)
+
| Would make people think that the Space Shuttle is the name of a space program.
+
|-
+
| TH
+
| Space Shuttle (official)
+
| Don't like this one myself.  Also, might be too controversial.
+
|-
+
! colspan="3" style="text-align: center" | Favoured by me
+
|-
+
| HW
+
| Space Shuttle (FGSP)
+
| None
+
|-
+
| TH
+
| Space Shuttle
+
| None
+
|}
+
  
: Also, idea for disambiguation text (assuming my favoured suggestions above):
+
: While I have not tested uploading, according the [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=upload&user=&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_patrol_log=1&hide_tag_log=1 upload log] files were uploaded as recent as the 26th.
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap"><nowiki>The Space Shuttle could either refer to
+
: Regarding the licenses it might be a good idea to add any missing [[:Category:License templates|license templates]].
* The [[Space Shuttle (FGSP)|Space Shuttle]] developed from the original Shuttle by {{usr|HerbW}} ''et al'' for the [[FlightGear Space Program]].
+
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 08:39, 28 May 2019 (EDT)
* The [[Space Shuttle]] further developed from the above by {{usr|Thorsten}} ''et al'' with new, more realistic [[FDM]]. This is the Space Shuttle that is included in the [[FGAddon]] repository.</nowiki></pre>
+
  
: I hope these suggestions are helpful.
+
== Conversion of direct forum links and URLs to templates ==
: [[User:Red_Leader|<span style="color:red">'''''Red Leader'''''</span>]] ([[User_talk:Red_Leader|Talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Red_Leader|contribs]]) 15:50, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
+
  
 +
I'll continue the discussions of [[Template talk:Forum link#Usable as replacement for cite web used for forum links?]] here.  After much editing of {{tl|project infrastructure}}, {{tl|project infrastructure option}}, {{tl|forum url}}, and {{tl|forum link}}, I have now gone through the wiki [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=forum.flightgear.org&fulltext=Search&profile=all] [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&profile=all&search=flightgear.org] and converted almost all direct links and URLs to the forum to use these new templates.  I used macros in ''vim'' to simplify and semi-automate the process.  There should now be almost no direct references to forum.flightgear.org left.  If I have missed anything obvious please point it out to me.
  
:: First off I will apologize for the late reply.
+
[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 09:49, 6 June 2019 (EDT)
  
:: I think I consider it a good idea to move the current [[Space Shuttle]] article to [[Space Shuttle (FG Space Program)]], moving [[Space Shuttle - Project overview]] there instead, and keep the [[Space Shuttle (disambiguation)]] page describing both in a few linesI think that "FGSP" would be a bit too cryptic for the "uninitiated", but that most users would be able to figure out "FG".
+
: I've found more direct forum links and converted those.  However I've also noticed that [[Special:Search]] does not reveal all instances of ''forum.flightgear.org'' or ''flightgear.org/forums''!? Does anyone know how to hunt down every last direct link?  Cheers!
  
:: The new [[Space Shuttle]] and [[Space Shuttle (FG Space Program)]] should most probably point to the disambiguation page rather than each other.
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 06:17, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
  
:: Though not really a part of the reply, it is for the record perhaps worth repeating that the current [[Space Shuttle]] article previously described the fgdata (later FGAddons) one, but was changed to describe the [[FlightGear space program]]/HerbieW/[[FGMEMBERS]] one (see [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Space_Shuttle&diff=next&oldid=81334 diff]).
+
:: That was huge amount of work.  Side note: In disbelief I looked at some of the edits where using the template decreased the article size by several kilobytes.
 +
:: There is a special page for looking for external links, [[Special:LinkSearch]], that might be useful.  Unfortunately it only looks for the domain, so you will have to sift though the results for the relevant hits.  ([http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?target=*.flightgear.org&namespace=&title=Special%3ALinkSearch External link search for "*.flightgear.org"].)
 +
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:19, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
  
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 18:03, 21 July 2015 (EDT)
+
::: Those articles with big diffs were usually the poor-quality articles pumped full of {{tl|cite web}} text.  I used vim macros to quickly convert them, but had to manually check every change to be sure as there were some issues.
  
== How do I load Cessna 152 on to FSX (2015) on OS X macbook ==
+
::: I'd completely forgotten about [[Special:LinkSearch]].  I had used that previously to convert all repository links to convert the entire wiki to use the [[:Category:Repository link templates]] template family.  I now see that the forum link conversion is a much, much, much bigger job!  I currently see:
 +
:::* <code><nowiki>http://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=3000&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 2,386 hits].
 +
:::* <code><nowiki>https://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=3000&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 2,029 hits].
 +
:::* <code><nowiki>http://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 295 hits]
 +
:::* <code><nowiki>https://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 0 hits]
  
Hi I hope you can help. I'm a new user of FlightGear and training for my PPL.
+
::: Unfortunately in converting all the direct links I found via the normal search, I know that we won't be able to automate/script this. There are far too many different ways these forum links are presented.  For example a link ending with the anchor <code>#p1234</code> or simply having <code>p=1234</code> in the URL can have all other elements (''t'', ''f'', ''sid'', etc.) removed and drop to simply <code>{{obr}}forum link{{!}}p=1234{{cbr}}</code>, with either the {{param|text}} or {{param|title}} parameters specified as needed.  Some forum links are unnecessarily long.  A link to a post only needs {{param|p}}, a link to a topic only {{param|t}} and a link to a subforum only {{param|f}}.  The exception being ''hilit''. However ''hilit'' is often present in the URL without any keywords. Then there is also a mix of using <code>=</code> and <code><nowiki>{{=}}</nowiki></code> in the URLs.  And it is not always completely obvious if {{tl|forum url}} or {{tl|forum link}} should be used.  The only regularity is in the {{tl|cite web}} usage, but that also appears to have 3 or 4 forms that have evolved over time.
I have software loaded on my macbook and have tried out the C172 but I want the Cessna 152 that I'm doing lessons in.
+
I've tried to download from disc but I can't do it. I searched online and can only find an add on for PCs.
+
  
Could you tell me where I can find it to download and step by step instructions please?
+
::: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 11:28, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
  
Z
+
=== Update ===
  
{{unsigned|19:51, 14 June 2015|Zedbee}}
+
I've eliminated all <code>flightgear.org/forums</code> hard links on the wiki to use {{tl|forum url}} and {{tl|forum link}}.  The numbers are now:
 +
* <code><nowiki>http://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=5000&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 1,918 hits].
 +
* <code><nowiki>https://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=5000&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 3,016 hits].
 +
* <code><nowiki>http://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 0 hits]
 +
* <code><nowiki>https://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 0 hits]
  
 +
For reference, here are my vim macros.  These are placed into the <code>~/.vimrc</code> file:
  
: You would probably get good answers if you register to the [http://forum.flightgear.org/ forum] and ask in the [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewforum.php?f=21 Mac subforum].
+
<syntaxhighlight lang=vim>
 +
" --- FlightGear forum conversions ---
 +
" Link: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums forums] to {{forum link|text=forums}}.
 +
let @f='/[http.*forum^Mv/ ^Mc{{forum link|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=13 section of our forum] to {{forum link|f=13|text=section of our forum}}.
 +
let @g='/[http.*forum^Mv/f=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7485#p102005] to {{forum link|p=102005}}.
 +
let @p='/[http.*forum^Mv/#^Mc{{forum link|^[la=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14254 thread] to {{forum link|t=14254|text=thread}}.
 +
let @t='/[http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15267#p149971 this short essay] to {{forum link|p=149971|text=this short essay}}.
 +
let @s='/[http.*forum^Mv/#^Mc{{forum link|^[la=^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1697&p=12549 ARINC] to {{forum link|p=12549|text=ARINC}}.
 +
let @r='/[http.*forum^Mv/p=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=22840] to {{forum link|t=22840}}.
 +
let @l='/[http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10488&p=144233&hilit=snapshot#p144233 at the forum] to {{forum link|hilit=snapshot|p=144233|text=at the forum}}.
 +
let @i='/[http.*forum^Mv/hilit^Mhc{{forum link|^[/#^Mxi|^[la=^[/ ^[vc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=20214&p=186020&hilit=xml+french#p185963] to {{forum link|hilit=xml+french|p=185963}}.
 +
let @j='/[http.*forum^Mv/hilit^Mhc{{forum link|^[/#^Mxi|^[la=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
  
: P.S. You can not use FSX aircraft directly in FlightGear, at the other hand there is probably at least one available for FlightGear.
+
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14758 to {{forum url|t=14758}}.
 +
let @w='/http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum url|^[llea}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2766&p=26459&hilit=generic+protocol#p26459 to {{forum url|hilit=generic+protocol|p=26459}}.
 +
let @h='/http.*forum^Mv/hilit^Mhc{{forum url|^[/#^Mxi|^[la=^[ea}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3430&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=oscillations+x to {{forum url|t=3430|hilit=oscillations+x}}
 +
let @b='/http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum url|^[llelv/hilit^Mhxi|^[/.[\n ]^[a}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" URL: Convert http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6890 to {{forum url|t=6890}}.
 +
let @v='/http.*forum^Mi{{forum url|^[lv/t=^Mhxllea}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3085&p=28982#p28982 to {{forum url|p=28982}}.
 +
let @x='/http.*forum^Mv/#^Mc{{forum url|^[la=^[ea}}^[/forum^MN'
 +
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5814&p=44566 to {{forum url|p=44566}}.
 +
let @y='/http.*forum^Mv/p=^Mhc{{forum url|^[llea}}^[/forum^MN'
  
: [[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 16:36, 14 June 2015 (EDT)
+
" Member: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=510 Gijs] to {{forum list|type=member|u=510|text=Gijs}}.
 +
let @m='/[http.*forum^Mv/member^Mhc{{forum link|type=^[/list^[v/u=^Mhc|^[/ ^[xi|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
  
== Rename Template ==
+
" Search: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums/search.php?st=0&amp;sk=t&amp;sd=d&amp;sr=posts&amp;keywords=head+tracking head tracking] to {{forum list|type=search|keywords=head+tracking|text=head tracking}}.
Do we have a template which alerts admins to a rename request?
+
let @a='/[http.*forum^Mv/search^Mhc{{forum link|type=^[/.php^[v/keywords=^Mhc|^[/ ^[xi|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
[[Avoiding Multiple Downloads of FGData]] could have on Linux tagged on, while the EDDK article needs rename to Flüghafen Koln / Bonn (EDDK) and the "AV8R 2nd Throttle as Pan Speed" AV8R Should be Aviator...
+
</syntaxhighlight>
[[User:Legoboyvdlp|Legoboyvdlp]] ([[User talk:Legoboyvdlp|talk]]) 15:42, 7 July 2015 (EDT)
+
  
: There is no need to call in admins for "renaming" or rather ''moving'' articles. ;-)
+
The <code>^[</code> and <code>^M</code> characters have to be converted into the escape and enter escape sequences for this to work (using e.g. {{key press|i}}, {{key press|ctrl|v}}, {{key press|esc}}, {{key press|esc}} and {{key press|i}}, {{key press|ctrl|v}}, {{key press|enter}}, {{key press|esc}}).  These handle the <code>forum.flightgear.org</code> hard links as well, but only cover maybe 90% of all hard links.  One link that often needs manual intervention is when ''start=X'' is in the URL.  This requires following the link, finding the post number, and then supplying the {{param|p}} parameter, which is absent from the original URL, to the templates.
  
: If you hover over or click on the down arrow between the "More" label and the search box to the top right of the page you will see the option "Move", which is wiki jargon for "rename"Before starting to move pages, have a peek at [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_wiki:Manual_of_Style&oldid=75296#Article_titles FlightGear wiki:Manual of Style#Article titles] (it is a short section).
+
'''Roadmap:'''  Once all the <code>http</code> links are converted, all links will be present in the <code>https</code> searchThen the {{tl|project infrastructure}} template can be modified to produce <code>http</code> forum URLs rather than <code>https</code>. This will cause only the unconverted <code>https</code> links in be present in the <code>https</code> search.
  
: {{inote|Please leave a redirect behind even if there is no wiki pages linking to that article.  There may be links to that page outside the wiki.}}
+
[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 04:19, 11 June 2019 (EDT)
  
: Slightly off topic now, but maybe useful later:  To move a category you would have to move the category page '''and''' edit all the pages in that category so the category link points to the new categorySee also [[Help:Categories]].
+
: Here is a test of the http to https switchBefore the switch:
 +
:* <code><nowiki>http://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=5000&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 1,914 hits].
 +
:* <code><nowiki>https://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=5000&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 3,060 hits].
 +
:* <code><nowiki>http://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 0 hits]
 +
:* <code><nowiki>https://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 0 hits]
  
: You can see the difference in what regular users and admins can do at [[Special:ListGroupRights]].
+
: And after the switch:
 +
:* <code><nowiki>http://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=5000&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 4,127 hits].
 +
:* <code><nowiki>https://forum.flightgear.org</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=5000&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.flightgear.org 835 hits].
 +
:* <code><nowiki>http://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 0 hits]
 +
:* <code><nowiki>https://flightgear.org/forums</nowiki></code>: [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Fflightgear.org%2Fforums 0 hits]
  
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 13:15, 9 July 2015 (EDT)
+
: So there are 1914 <code>http://</code> and 835 <code>https://</code> forum hard links still to convert!
  
== Template:Dmbox and the disambiguation categories ==
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 09:42, 2 July 2019 (EDT)
It seems {{tl|dmbox}} adds several categories to each disambiguation page it is used on.  In addition {{tl|disambiguation}}, which uses that template, add one category further.
+
  
I would say that the "All ..." is superfluous as well.  Also, currently none of the categories have a parent category.
+
== Language flags on the main page ==
  
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 17:26, 12 July 2015 (EDT)
+
While activating "Português do Brasil" as a new language on the wiki (via [[Special:Interwiki]]), I decided to use a generic white flag for the language on the [[main page]].  As an experiment I have added this generic flag for all translations.  It is not pretty, but it does better advertise the languages where a flag makes zero sense.  Please have a look and see what you think!
  
== Description of the FlightGear screenshot categories ==
+
[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 04:35, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
{{hatnote|Regarding the new article [[FlightGear wiki:FlightGear screenshot categories]].}}
+
  
I have now written together a description of how I have organized the [[:Category:FlightGear screenshots|FlightGear screenshot categories]] ([[Special:CategoryTree/FlightGear screenshots|tree]]) and the rationale behind themI think I have been working on categorizing the images and in particular the screenshots uploaded to this wiki since even before the village pump was here, but I have never really tried to explain what it was all about.
+
: I would also like to point out that it is still impossible to edit the wiki in certain languages.  See [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2016#UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited]].  We really need to fix this database error issue.
  
I would encourage everyone to have a look at it, in particular if you more or less regularly upload screenshots to the wiki.
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 05:34, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
  
I do encourage leaving feedback on the [[FlightGear wiki talk:FlightGear screenshot categories|discussion page]]. However, I also want to point out that this is a de facto description and that ''some'' aspects of how the screenshots actually are organized probably cannot be changed without requiring literally man-months of work, even if some things can be done by [[User:BotFlightGear|robot]].
+
: Don't worry about the white flag, I've now uploaded public domain icons, taken from Wiki Commons SVG files, for all language flags. For Persian, I've used the Iranian flag.  And for Arabic I've used the neutral Arab League flag.  So now we have flag icons for all current translations.
  
[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 17:18, 19 July 2015 (EDT)
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: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 05:59, 7 June 2019 (EDT)

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Welcome to the Village Pump. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the FlightGear wiki.

Please add new topics to the bottom of this page.

Old discussions should be moved to a FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.

Welcoming template

I have had a shelved draft of a welcoming template laying in a subpage for quite a while that I have dusted off and rewritten.

It has a welcoming message and some links I hope will be useful to new users (and perhaps not so new ones as well). The idea is that when some of us sees that there is a new user we will add that template to the top of the new users discussion page. I am not sure about whether we should wait till the user have made some edits (to see if it is a bot) or if we should add it at once.

I would like to have some more eyes on it to see for example if I should have some more or some less links, or if there is something I did not think of. I tried to use as few links as possible, while also keeping ones a new user might hope is there, but do not know where to look for.

When I feel content with it I will move it to the template namespace and add a site notice linking to it for a while, as I am not sure if you all look here or on Special:RecentChanges.

Anyway here is my current draft (do not hesitate to add suggestions on its discussion page): User:Johan G/Template:Welcome to the wiki

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 13:02, 15 April 2019 (EDT)

The template is now moved to {{Welcome to the wiki}}
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 18:19, 17 April 2019 (EDT)
Hi Johan,
The template looks good to me!
Gijs (talk) 06:48, 16 April 2019 (EDT)
It looks good to me too. What about using Extension:Create User Page to fully automate the process?
Bugman (talk) 09:57, 16 April 2019 (EDT)
If you mean as in automatically creating a user discussion page and adding the welcome template? Though it would probably be a good idea, as likely no one will be left without a welcome, it kind of feels better if it is done by a being of flesh and blood than if it was done by a bot. Consider me undecided. ;-)
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 18:13, 17 April 2019 (EDT)
It is a worry that the automation will not seem personal. However I just counted the new user registrations from 17/04/2018 to 17/04/2019. There are 113 registrations! Maybe 5% are not bots, but identifying these is hard. I think it will be too overwhelming for any individual to manually do this.
Bugman (talk) 01:43, 18 April 2019 (EDT)
One registration every second day. Automation might not be such a bad idea after all.
I noticed though that Extension:Create User Page does not create the user discussion page, which is where such messageboxes typically are placed. Maybe not a big problem.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 12:46, 19 April 2019 (EDT)
A site notice is now up with the text "Hi fellow wiki users!
To help new users get more familiar with the wiki (and maybe older users too) there is now a {{Welcome to the wiki}} template. Have a look at it and feel free to add it to new users discussion pages (and perhaps your own).
I have tried to keep the template short, but meaningful. /Johan G"
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 06:13, 26 April 2019 (EDT)

I just noticed Extension:NewUserMessage which seems perfectly suited to be used the way Bugman mentioned Extension:Create User Page above on 16 April. This extension automatically creates a discussion page with a message for new users. —Johan G (Talk | contribs) 10:44, 22 June 2019 (EDT)

I think we should really use such an extension. There are just too many new user subscriptions to do this manually (and my experience from my own wiki is that 99% of subscriptions are failed bots). I say install it asap. It would really benefit real new users who might be lost under the load of failed bot registrations. Can you install it yourself Johan?
Bugman (talk) 03:50, 2 July 2019 (EDT)
No, I can not install wiki extensions (I am a wiki admin just like you). Simon, the maintainer, can for sure do it and I think that maybe Gijs could do do it.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 10:21, 4 July 2019 (EDT)
Sent a mail to Gijs and Simon, with a copy to you.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 12:24, 4 July 2019 (EDT)

Adding it to all user discussion pages?

I have started to wonder if we maybe should add the template to all of the user discussion pages (but not archived ones of course).

What would be the advantages and disadvantages of that. Personally I see more advantages than disadvantages with that.

This would be a bot job of course.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 08:50, 21 June 2019 (EDT)

The lead section, or first section, as I have called it

Most of the time when I have been writing help pages I have tried to use the terminology used on Wikipedia and its sister projects, but somehow I have called the lead section (or lead or introduction) first section and done that consistently. I have gone through the help pages and changed that.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 08:56, 23 May 2019 (EDT)


Automated translation for the wikipedia template

Just for the record, I attempted to modify {{wikipedia}} to automatically determine the page language and point to the non-english Wikipedia page without the lang parameter. I have recently added the wikipedia parameter to {{infobox aircraft}} and was hoping to use the language auto-detection to have the wikipedia infobox link point to the correct translation at Wikipedia. I could not use {{PAGELANGUAGE}} as this required MediaWiki >= 1.29 (see [1]). So I unsuccessfully attempted to use the same logic as the {{LangSwitch}} parameter. I reverted all changes as there appears to be no way to correctly detect the page language (other than wait for the next MediaWiki upgrade to expose {{PAGELANGUAGE}}).

Bugman (talk) 05:51, 24 May 2019 (EDT)

Note that this means that the aircraft infobox wikipedia link can only point to the English page until an upgrade occurs (this is not urgent though).
Bugman (talk) 06:01, 24 May 2019 (EDT)
{{lc: {{#titleparts: {{PAGENAME}} | 1}} }} should return the language code needed for the lang= parameter.
Note that you will only be able to pull this of where the article title is exactly the same in another language. If a model for example have have another name in one country (like cars sometimes have) the link will fail. If the title is transcribed the link will fail. Etc.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 07:16, 24 May 2019 (EDT)

Expansion of the upload licence list and uploading errors

I've always been concerned that we do not present enough licence choices for the graphics uploaded to the wiki. In testing this, I've noticed that I can no longer upload graphics to the wiki! I see a red exclamation mark and the text Unknown error: "unknown", None of the uploads were successful., the button Retry failed uploads, and 0 of 1 file uploaded. Has any one else seen this?

Also, is there a reason we don't update MediaWiki:Licenses? I think I'll add the CC v4.0 licenses so those can be selected. I'll probably also add the GPL.

Bugman (talk) 04:22, 27 May 2019 (EDT)

While I have not tested uploading, according the upload log files were uploaded as recent as the 26th.
Regarding the licenses it might be a good idea to add any missing license templates.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 08:39, 28 May 2019 (EDT)

Conversion of direct forum links and URLs to templates

I'll continue the discussions of Template talk:Forum link#Usable as replacement for cite web used for forum links? here. After much editing of {{project infrastructure}}, {{project infrastructure option}}, {{forum url}}, and {{forum link}}, I have now gone through the wiki [2] [3] and converted almost all direct links and URLs to the forum to use these new templates. I used macros in vim to simplify and semi-automate the process. There should now be almost no direct references to forum.flightgear.org left. If I have missed anything obvious please point it out to me.

Bugman (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2019 (EDT)

I've found more direct forum links and converted those. However I've also noticed that Special:Search does not reveal all instances of forum.flightgear.org or flightgear.org/forums!? Does anyone know how to hunt down every last direct link? Cheers!
Bugman (talk) 06:17, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
That was huge amount of work. Side note: In disbelief I looked at some of the edits where using the template decreased the article size by several kilobytes.
There is a special page for looking for external links, Special:LinkSearch, that might be useful. Unfortunately it only looks for the domain, so you will have to sift though the results for the relevant hits. (External link search for "*.flightgear.org".)
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 10:19, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
Those articles with big diffs were usually the poor-quality articles pumped full of {{cite web}} text. I used vim macros to quickly convert them, but had to manually check every change to be sure as there were some issues.
I'd completely forgotten about Special:LinkSearch. I had used that previously to convert all repository links to convert the entire wiki to use the Category:Repository link templates template family. I now see that the forum link conversion is a much, much, much bigger job! I currently see:
Unfortunately in converting all the direct links I found via the normal search, I know that we won't be able to automate/script this. There are far too many different ways these forum links are presented. For example a link ending with the anchor #p1234 or simply having p=1234 in the URL can have all other elements (t, f, sid, etc.) removed and drop to simply {{forum link|p=1234}}, with either the text or title parameters specified as needed. Some forum links are unnecessarily long. A link to a post only needs p, a link to a topic only t and a link to a subforum only f. The exception being hilit. However hilit is often present in the URL without any keywords. Then there is also a mix of using = and {{=}} in the URLs. And it is not always completely obvious if {{forum url}} or {{forum link}} should be used. The only regularity is in the {{cite web}} usage, but that also appears to have 3 or 4 forms that have evolved over time.
Bugman (talk) 11:28, 7 June 2019 (EDT)

Update

I've eliminated all flightgear.org/forums hard links on the wiki to use {{forum url}} and {{forum link}}. The numbers are now:

For reference, here are my vim macros. These are placed into the ~/.vimrc file:

" --- FlightGear forum conversions ---
" Link: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums forums] to {{forum link|text=forums}}.
let @f='/[http.*forum^Mv/ ^Mc{{forum link|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=13 section of our forum] to {{forum link|f=13|text=section of our forum}}.
let @g='/[http.*forum^Mv/f=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7485#p102005] to {{forum link|p=102005}}.
let @p='/[http.*forum^Mv/#^Mc{{forum link|^[la=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14254 thread] to {{forum link|t=14254|text=thread}}.
let @t='/[http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15267#p149971 this short essay] to {{forum link|p=149971|text=this short essay}}.
let @s='/[http.*forum^Mv/#^Mc{{forum link|^[la=^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1697&p=12549 ARINC] to {{forum link|p=12549|text=ARINC}}.
let @r='/[http.*forum^Mv/p=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/ ^Mvc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=22840] to {{forum link|t=22840}}.
let @l='/[http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum link|^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10488&p=144233&hilit=snapshot#p144233 at the forum] to {{forum link|hilit=snapshot|p=144233|text=at the forum}}.
let @i='/[http.*forum^Mv/hilit^Mhc{{forum link|^[/#^Mxi|^[la=^[/ ^[vc|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'
" Link: Convert [http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=20214&p=186020&hilit=xml+french#p185963] to {{forum link|hilit=xml+french|p=185963}}.
let @j='/[http.*forum^Mv/hilit^Mhc{{forum link|^[/#^Mxi|^[la=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'

" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14758 to {{forum url|t=14758}}.
let @w='/http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum url|^[llea}}^[/forum^MN'
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2766&p=26459&hilit=generic+protocol#p26459 to {{forum url|hilit=generic+protocol|p=26459}}.
let @h='/http.*forum^Mv/hilit^Mhc{{forum url|^[/#^Mxi|^[la=^[ea}}^[/forum^MN'
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3430&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=oscillations+x to {{forum url|t=3430|hilit=oscillations+x}}
let @b='/http.*forum^Mv/t=^Mhc{{forum url|^[llelv/hilit^Mhxi|^[/.[\n ]^[a}}^[/forum^MN'
" URL: Convert http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6890 to {{forum url|t=6890}}.
let @v='/http.*forum^Mi{{forum url|^[lv/t=^Mhxllea}}^[/forum^MN'
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3085&p=28982#p28982 to {{forum url|p=28982}}.
let @x='/http.*forum^Mv/#^Mc{{forum url|^[la=^[ea}}^[/forum^MN'
" URL: Convert http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5814&p=44566 to {{forum url|p=44566}}.
let @y='/http.*forum^Mv/p=^Mhc{{forum url|^[llea}}^[/forum^MN'

" Member: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=510 Gijs] to {{forum list|type=member|u=510|text=Gijs}}.
let @m='/[http.*forum^Mv/member^Mhc{{forum link|type=^[/list^[v/u=^Mhc|^[/ ^[xi|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'

" Search: Convert [http://www.flightgear.org/forums/search.php?st=0&amp;sk=t&amp;sd=d&amp;sr=posts&amp;keywords=head+tracking head tracking] to {{forum list|type=search|keywords=head+tracking|text=head tracking}}.
let @a='/[http.*forum^Mv/search^Mhc{{forum link|type=^[/.php^[v/keywords=^Mhc|^[/ ^[xi|text=^[/]^Mvc}}^[/forum^MN'

The ^[ and ^M characters have to be converted into the escape and enter escape sequences for this to work (using e.g. i, ctrl+v, esc, esc and i, ctrl+v, Enter, esc). These handle the forum.flightgear.org hard links as well, but only cover maybe 90% of all hard links. One link that often needs manual intervention is when start=X is in the URL. This requires following the link, finding the post number, and then supplying the p parameter, which is absent from the original URL, to the templates.

Roadmap: Once all the http links are converted, all links will be present in the https search. Then the {{project infrastructure}} template can be modified to produce http forum URLs rather than https. This will cause only the unconverted https links in be present in the https search.

Bugman (talk) 04:19, 11 June 2019 (EDT)

Here is a test of the http to https switch. Before the switch:
And after the switch:
  • http://forum.flightgear.org: 4,127 hits.
  • https://forum.flightgear.org: 835 hits.
  • http://flightgear.org/forums: 0 hits
  • https://flightgear.org/forums: 0 hits
So there are 1914 http:// and 835 https:// forum hard links still to convert!
Bugman (talk) 09:42, 2 July 2019 (EDT)

Language flags on the main page

While activating "Português do Brasil" as a new language on the wiki (via Special:Interwiki), I decided to use a generic white flag for the language on the main page. As an experiment I have added this generic flag for all translations. It is not pretty, but it does better advertise the languages where a flag makes zero sense. Please have a look and see what you think!

Bugman (talk) 04:35, 7 June 2019 (EDT)

I would also like to point out that it is still impossible to edit the wiki in certain languages. See FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2016#UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited. We really need to fix this database error issue.
Bugman (talk) 05:34, 7 June 2019 (EDT)
Don't worry about the white flag, I've now uploaded public domain icons, taken from Wiki Commons SVG files, for all language flags. For Persian, I've used the Iranian flag. And for Arabic I've used the neutral Arab League flag. So now we have flag icons for all current translations.
Bugman (talk) 05:59, 7 June 2019 (EDT)