Difference between revisions of "FlightGear wiki:Village pump"

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(Having separate image categories or not?)
(Needing an extra pair of eyes: Did not think of comparing namespace numbers between the templates. Using full namespace names is probably safer. Thank you so much for looking into this! :-)
 
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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]], [[/Archive 2013|2013]]}}
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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]]|[[/Archive 2013|2013]]|[[/Archive 2014|2014]]|[[/Archive 2015|2015]]|[[/Archive 2016|2016]]|[[/Archive 2017|2017]]|[[/Archive 2018|2018]]|[[/Archive 2019|2019]]}}
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{{shortcut|FGW:VP}}
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Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
 
Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
  
: Please [{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics] to the '''bottom''' of this page.
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Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
 
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: Old discussion should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
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----
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== MediaWiki updated to 1.22.0 ==
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I've updated MediaWiki to the latest stable, 1.22.0 today. Please report bugs if you find any. For a list of changes, see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Release_notes/1.22
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[[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 15:00, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
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=== Found bugs ===
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* Clicking the category link at the bottom of some articles will give a fatal error.  For clicking the [[:Category:FlightGear]] at [[FlightGear]] will give the error message: ''Fatal error: Class 'Services_JSON' not found in /home/wiki/wiki/extensions/CategoryTree/CategoryTreeFunctions.php on line 224''.
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: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 03:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
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:: The CategoryTree extension relies on a function that was removed as of 1.22.0, so the extensions needs some fixing. I've disabled it for now.
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:: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 13:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
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::: Yay, CategoryTree is back.  Thanks Gijs!
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::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 19:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
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* Also, the mobile theme results in an error: ''Fatal error: Call to undefined method MobileFormatter::setHtmlMode() in /home/wiki/wiki/extensions/MobileFrontend/includes/MobileFormatter.php on line 62'' (works fine after selecting desktop mode).
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: Thanks,
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: [[User:Philosopher|—Philosopher]] ([[User talk:Philosopher|talk]]) 03:59, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
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:: I forgot to update the mobile extension. Works again ;-)
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:: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 13:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
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* In the CategoryTree the FlightGear category [[:Category:Documentation|appears empty]]. The solution is reported at [[mw:Extension:CategoryTree#Member counts are wrong, gray arrows ► are shown instead of ►]]. It's a minor problem but the solution looks easy, for what I can tell.
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: --[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 00:27, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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:: Unfortunately that doesn't seem to help...
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:: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 11:11, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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== Got any ideas for a better name for this page? ==
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As this is for this page in particular, see the [[FlightGear wiki talk:Village pump#Any ideas for a better name|talk page]].
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—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 15:44, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
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== Template for announcement of changes and new features ==
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From a forum PM from Hooray (posted here with his permission):
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<div style="background: #fafaf0; padding: 1em;">
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hi, whenever we announce a new feature, we typically need to do this in three places:
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* newsletter
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* changelog
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* the docs (corresponding wiki articles)
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so far, we have always copied & pasted things, I would prefer to have a single template for this instead, something like
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{{tlx|Announce|version|description}}
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This could add announcements to each release cycle (i.e. 3.2 currently), and we could maybe automatically add things to the newsletter and the release changelog.
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Like I said, I would like to avoid redundant efforts, i.e. less copy & paste
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Do you have any ideas on how to implement this using existing wiki means ?
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Ideally, we would create a new announcement, like for example "canvas mouse button support", and could then use this announcement in all 3 places by calling the corresponding template.
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Thanks
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</div>
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My take is that to use a separate template for each new feature is not a good idea, but if I understand him correctly his intention is to gather up each months new features in one template.
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Any thoughts on this?
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—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 17:14, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
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{{WIP}}
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; margin-left: 1.5em;">I am thinking of restructuring the way we're writing our newsletter by focusing on our "ugly stepchild", namely the "changelog" - as others like Torsten have pointed out, we should ideally be writing the changelog as early as possible - but the truth is, it's mostly forum people contributing to it, and it's not seen too many edits. The newsletter is working a bit better for us. So I was thinking of how to unify both worlds - especially keeping in mind that our changelog encompasses basically 6 months, i.e. 6 newsletter editions.
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So I am considering to split up our newsletter into a handful of building blocks and use a few templates, so that additions are added through a few custom templates, that would automatically add things to the changelog.
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The changelog would then be written by contributing to the newsletter  and using the proper templates, such as e.g.:
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{{changelog|version=3.2|category:aircraft|type=updated|announcement=The 747-400 and 777-200 have received extensive updates, and are now both using the new MapStructure-based NavDisplay framework|screenshots=|videos=}}
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The changelog would then  be procedurally assembled by processing all templates for the corresponding release cycle.
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I would even consider locking the changelog itself, and making it just a template that references the stuff included via templates.
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We may however benefit from a few additional mediawiki extensions. But otherwise, I am hoping that the changelog is going to be more comprehensive, while the wiki would become more "formal" - we could obviously still support additions without using changelog-templates, i.e. those would be excluded.
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thoughts / ideas ?
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(CC'ing Philosopher, because he's been doing some template stuff, too)</pre>
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:Need to come up with a template that handles announcements, primarily for the changelog and the newsletter. There's a mutual relationship here, but the newsletter is much more popular, i.e. sees more contributions and more activity overall. Changelog writing is still a chore. But basically 6 months worth of newsletters are equivalent to a single changelog, we only need to establish some framework around this - and then the whole changelog could be mostly based on newsletter contributions. It would greatly help to request people to make announcements ALWAYS using 3rd person speech, so that things can be directly copied from the forum/devel list to the newsletter/changelog. That's kinda the idea here. It would reduce our workload quite significantly
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:* Changelog
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:* Newsletter
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:* Devel List
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:* Forum
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:* Website
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:{{unsigned|21:25, 24 April 2014‎|Hooray}}
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::I will probably have to take a look at this now and again to think about if and how this could be done.  I assume Hooray is aiming at having each newsletter and change log built up mostly from "instances" of a template like in the above comments.
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::There are pros and cons with this approach, as with any.  I think that one of the cons is that even the slightest overhead and/or complication might scare away a few contributors.  But at the other hand I fully understand that reading through six months of newsletters + forum posts + devel list posts are not that fun either (though I would guess that is not how things are done ;-).
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::''Slightly off topic'' is that I would like to see a section in the change log mentioning changes that will break backwards compatibility.  I first saw such a section, "Breaking changes", in the [https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Release_notes/1.22&oldid=848518#MediaWiki_1.22.0 change log of MedeiaWiki 1.22] when the software of this wiki was updated, and figured it would be a good idea.  This could be useful for things like for example figuring out whether FlightGear x.x can use World Scenery y.y.
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::''Even more off topic'' I think that the wiki/newsletter/devel list/etc are rather blunt tools for keeping an up to date change log.  My gut feeling is that there are tools for that around, and even if we do not use them we might borrow some ideas from them, hopefully without bringing a lot of red tape(!).
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::—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 20:14, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
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::: Interesting subject! I think going through just 6 newsletters by hand is more rewarding than coming up with complex templates that will increase the entry barrier of the newsletter and still require summarising/rewordings afterwards to fit the concise format of a changelog. Introducing a template on the wiki won't take away the forum/devel list scanning that's required as not everyone contributes to the wiki.
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::: I do support the "breaking changes" idea though ;-)
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::: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 19:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
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== Very dispersed Boeing 777 articles! ==
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Hi, I got interested in Flightgear and was taking a look at the Boeing 777 articles and noticed that it was incredibly spread out.
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Each aircraft has it's own page with information to varying degrees of completeness. Having a look at the A330 articles, they are much more 'aligned' and it's a lot easier to find stuff. Maybe this could be something that could be done with the Boeing.  Since both seem to be very similar, I'm thinking that there could be a common page on help and tutorials respectively, with the individual type pages catering to unique information. I started on some stuff but pretty quickly figured out it was a better idea to check here first :)
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--[[User:Manfred|Manfred]] ([[User talk:Manfred|talk]]) 11:55, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
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: Doing a simple search for pages containing "777" (see [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?search=777&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 this link]) I quickly see what you mean.
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: I assume that the different versions may have different authors and thus probably are slightly different from each other when it comes to handling and completeness.  It might be a good idea to start by going through each of the help pages and tutorials (preferably while playing with the different aircraft at the same time), as well as having a look at help dialogues and any readmes in the aircraft packages.
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: Making a common page, while highlighting differences between the different versions, could probably help other users a lot and may perhaps be a help for aircraft developers to use features from more complete versions to improve the other ones as well as help motivate harmonizing handling like for example key bindings.
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: If I understand your intention I can not see why anyone would do anything but trying to give you helpful hints, after all this is a wiki. :-)
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: One hint for starters is to begin working on a page as a subpage to your user page, like for example [[User:Manfred/Boeing 777 Autopilot]] (I just moved it) and then moving it to the article namespace when you feel it has reached the level where you are comfortable with it (though this is not by any means necessary, it's just that I like doing so myself).
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: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 16:40, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
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: I am interested to help, this page could be a model of what we could offer : [http://wiki.flightgear.org/Boeing_787-8_Dreamliner 777-8 Dreamliner]
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: -- [[User:F-JYL|F-JYL]] 21 April 2014 09:32
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== Bash and DOS syntax highlighting ==
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[[User:Daemonburrito|Daemonburrito]] found that we can use syntax highlighting for Bash.  I guess that means that we could use syntax highlighting for most Linux (and possibly also Mac) command lines.  Looking at [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:SyntaxHighlight_GeSHi]] I find that we also also probably can use that for DOS prompts.
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—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 07:24, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
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: We've had that extension installed for a while now. Everything that's listed at [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight_GeSHi#Supported_languages Supported languages] is supported, plus Nasal.
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: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 11:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
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:: I'm aware of the list, but was not aware that syntax highlighting could be used for shell programming (and hence shell promts) and guessed I was not alone.
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:: Basically added the topic to highlight (pun intended) the possibility to do so.  I should probably also mention it in [[Help:Formatting#Syntax highlighting]].
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:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 13:53, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
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== A plan for a reorganization of the wiki ==
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There is an ongoing discussion on [[User:Bigstones/Essay:A plan for a reorganization of the wiki]]. Please comment on its talk page, to avoid scattering the discussion. This "section" is only intended to inform about it.
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--[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 12:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
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== The new progress bar icons ==
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I just changed icons that {{tl|progressbar}} is using and would like some constructive feedback.
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Some things I have noted myself is that while I used a blend of the colours used in the old icons and in some of [[Special:ListFiles/Johan_G|my other icons]], these icons have a much larger coloured area and thus might have a little high contrast.
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In any way I am going to let this rest for a week or two and follow it up then.
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—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 01:05, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
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: After having made them a tiny pixel smaller (from 16 px to 15 px) and having done no other changes I seem to be liking them more and more, so I leave them in their current state.
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: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 18:13, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
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== Category:Support ==
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As it seems that support organization is a priority, I created [[:Category:Support]]. I hope the name is generic enough to avoid misunderstandings... but I thought better to have a bad one, than nothing. I'll try to put there everything on support I find so that it can be better organized (merged/split and then cleaned up).
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--[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 13:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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:Hi,
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:
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:I didn't read through all of your ideas yet, but isn't "Support" a rather obscure term? Everything could fit under that branch, so we'll end up with yet another giant category; which you tried to prevent, right? Or maybe I'm just missing the bigger picture...
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:[[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 13:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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:: Hi, I figured out (''edit: led to figure out'') that support organization is a major problem. There's a lot of "support" related articles, 2-3 articles only on OpenGL. I hoped that this name could indeed be wide enough, and that in case it could just be renamed. Troubleshooting seemed to narrow to me on the other side, but if you think that would be better I can change it now (waiting for response before proceeding).--[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 13:29, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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::: Take [[Settings for slower graphics cards]] for example. It's categorised under [[:Category:Performance tuning]]. I would expect that to be a sub of [[:Category:Support]]. Anyone looking for articles on how to improve performance can check that category then. I don't expect anyone to go through a very broad category with 100s of articles to find info on a rather specific subject.
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::: Or maybe I should reword my comment into a question: What would be the use case of [[:Category:Support]]?
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::: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 13:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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::: PS: I know we have a lot of bloated categories on this wiki, so I'm glad you've brought all this back on the agenda ;-)
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:::: With the example: I confess I was probably deceived by the presence of some development related stuff in [[:Category:Performance tuning]]. I thought it would be better to separate development and usage. Framerate is either a user issue, or a developer's aim. I think the two can be separated. The problem is I moved out the most of it! I should consider the contrary. I'll undo. (I currently have like 20 open browser tabs so it might take me some time).
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Old discussions should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
:::: The use case however is: gather support articles so that a maintainer can split/merge them to make them more organized. Once that's done, there won't probably be more than 10 articles, and if there are, still one can subcategorize. In the above case, I just took the longest path, but given the lack of tools I confess I just wanted to get started.
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:::: --[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 14:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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:::: ... I must confess also that after undoing, I feel the urge to redo that again. The two non-support related articles, [[GIT Performance Tests]] and [[Howto:Use the system monitor]] (where btw, the "profiling" section might be directed to ''core'' developers?) would have no place if I move this category into support. That's also why I moved it into Development. Let me know what you think, also regarding the Support category name.
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:::: --[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 14:24, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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== FlightGear screenshot categories ==
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== New Portal: Embedded or Hardware (02/2020) ==
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Suggestion: Dedicated portal for articles relating to embedded/hardware topics (which would be in line with numerous threads on the forum, as well as existing articles on the wiki). - [[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 11:59, 17 February 2020 (EST)
  
I have been thinking about this for quite a whileWhen I was categorising the images, I gave the categories with the FlightGear screenshots quite cumbersome and long names.
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: That is slightly less complicated than you might thinkWhat you would do is to create a new page with the prefix <code>Portal:</code> and a suitable name, say for example [[Portal:Hardware development]], [[Portal:Cockpit hardware]] or [[Portal:DIY cockpit hardware]], or maybe [[Portal:Hardware]] if you would also like to see commercial hardware there, and then copy and modify the content from a similar portal.
  
I guess the discussions with Bigstones, in particular [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Bigstones/Essay:A_plan_for_a_reorganization_of_the_wiki&diff=70678&oldid=70675 my reply here] (see second paragraph under 2.) might have stirred up some old dust for me. :-)
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: Hint: There is actually not a portal [[Help:Namespaces|namespace]], it is just a prefix. The portal pages are actually in the main namespaces, and thus function just like any other article page on the wiki.
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: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 13:35, 10 March 2020 (EDT)
  
The cumbersome and long names has a couple negative effects.  Firstly they are way longer to type than should be necessary, secondly, and more important I think, the probability that they show up in the upload wizard probably is rather low as they all begin with "FlightGear..." (what was I thinking, like if someone would upload a bunch of X-Plane screenshots here)I ''guess'' that by beginning most if not all screenshot category names with "Screenshots of..." the chances they would be used will increase.
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: Though I think your [[Portal:Embedded]] might be more diffuse than [[Portal:Hardware]] for people that do not know what {{wikipedia|embedded software}} is, I have still added it to the main page and added [[:Category:Portals]] to itIt will get more use if people can find it. :-P
  
In addition to that some of those categories are way too large and need to be diffused (broken down into smaller categories).
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: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 04:16, 14 March 2020 (EDT)
  
I have noted that a lot of aircraft images have been added to the aircraft article categories.  I would prefer if the screenshot categories associated with different kinds of aircraft (e.g. fighters or airliners) would be subcategories to the screenshot categories ''and'' that those screenshot categories would be a subcategory to the category for those kinds of aircraftI have at some point started to try mimic the structure of [[:Category:Aircraft by type]] in [[:Category:FlightGear screenshots of aircraft by type]], but got distracted or forgot about it for a while.  Someting similar might be needed for the cockpit screenshots.
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== Use as few categories as possible ==
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Always use as few categories as possibleCategories are a place in a structure rather than tags. Putting each page in a lot of categories will put a lot of of pages in each categoryThere is in particular no need to put a page in both a category and then in each category above that category.
  
The note about intended contents should also mention that these categories are intended only for in-sim screenshots from FlightGear.
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Please see advice in [[Help:Your first article#Categories]] and maybe also [[Help:categories]].
  
In conclusion I suggest, and would like feedback on, the following:
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—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 13:04, 15 March 2020 (EDT)
  
{| class="wikitable"
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== Meta template and templates for commonly used logotypes and icons ==
! Current category !! Suggested new category !! Alternative new category !! Comment
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Through a placeholder page (ugh!) and a edit summary Hooray suggested making a template for commonly used logotypes.
|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear cockpit screenshots‎]] || [[:Category:Screenshots of cockpits]] || Cockpit screenshots ||
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|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear cockpit close-up screenshots‎]] || [[:Category:Screenshots of cockpit details]] || Cockpit close-up screenshots ||
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|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear dialogue screenshots‎]]
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| <s>Category:Screenshots of ‎dialogues</s>
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[[:Category:Screenshots of dialogs in FlightGear‎]]
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{{cquote|placeholder/stub for all sorts of wiki related logos that may need to be updated over time, but that are referenced on multiple pages - so that we don't need to edit each and every page here.|2=[http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Template:Logo&oldid=123306 Hooray, 11 April 2020‎, 08:04]}}
| <s>Dialogue</s> dialog box screenshots ||
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{{cquote|@Johan: could use your help with this, unless I can write the heuristics in Php or JavaScript ;-)|Hooray, 11 April 2020‎, 08:04}}
|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear exterior screenshots]]‎ || [[:Category:Screenshots of aircraft]] || Exterior screenshots ||
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|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear interior screenshots]] || [[:Category:Screenshots of cabins]] || Cabin screenshots ||
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|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear scenery screenshots]]‎ || [[:Category:Screenshots of scenery]] || Scenery screenshots ||
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|-
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| Category:FlightGear screenshots of aircraft by type || [[:Category:Screenshots of aircraft by type]] || &mdash; || Should only contain categories
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|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear screenshots of vehicles]] || [[:Category:Screenshots of vehicles]] || Vehicle screenshots ||
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|-
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| [[:Category:FlightGear weather screenshots]]‎ || [[:Category:Screenshots of weather]] || Weather screenshots ||
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|}
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In essence it is a huge bot job, except for the diffusion of the largest screenshot categories.
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I would guess you also intend it to be used for icons as well, for example the [[:Category:Ready icons|ready icons]]?  Logotype/icon templates might not be a bad idea.  Less typing is almost always good.
  
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 15:57, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
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{{tl|logo}} should probably be a meta template, a template used by other templates in this case by logotype templates.  Meta templates are pretty common on MediaWiki wikis.
  
: As I might have said already, I'm ok with it and in particular I agree that images would be easier to find if in their own branch. The only thing, I think it's not going to last if the upload wizard doesn't enforce the use of a subcat of "Files", or at least, suggests that area in some handy way (i.e. not a written notice). Maybe the CategoryTree could be included (like with templates) to help finding the right category? It's hard to figure out a good one by typing characters one by one.
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Essentially, there could be a set of logotype and icon templates, for example {{tl|Compositor logo}}, {{tl|FGInterface logo}}, {{tl|Air refueling ready icon}} etc, that pass the image for the logotype, an alt text (for accessibility and when the image is not shown, for example due to browser settings) and a link to a relevant wiki page to {{tl|logo}}. Possibly also optional parameters like other sizes etc.  The meta template would then add the boilerplate stuff around that and set the size.
: --[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 21:49, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
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:: Created the category pages as above, except for Category:Screenshots of ‎dialogues, which I found a bit ambiguous.  I named that one Category:Screenshots of dialogues in FlightGear‎ instead.
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I would advise that having a suffix indicating the type of template, for example ''logo'', ''icon'' like mentioned above or ''navigation'' (for navigation boxes), in essence having less ambiguous names, is generally a good idea.
:: I have also added a request at the [[User talk:BotFlightGear#FlightGear screenshot categories|bot talk page]] ([http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=User_talk:BotFlightGear&oldid=71130#FlightGear_screenshot_categories permalink])
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:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 17:59, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
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::: Did the move to [[:Category:Screenshots of aircraft by type]] by hand. Was only a few files.
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I should mention that I am generally against placeholder pages.
::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 18:46, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
+
  
::: I hope I'm not late, I noticed only now, but ''dialogue'' tends to be used more as in "discussion between two", while the GUI elements are usually spelled ''dialogs''. I guess that more than real confusion this distinction would cause just minor hilarity, but... you never know, you might find in there screenshots of radio chat with ATC. (being not a native english speaker, [http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/59640/what-is-the-difference-between-dialogue-and-dialog here's my ref.]) --[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 19:20, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
+
[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 06:44, 12 April 2020 (EDT)
  
:::: Well spotted, good reference as well and most important not too late.  Thank you!  I was wondering a bit but guessed that dialog was more or less colloquial as dialogue seemed correct with both my browsers English and American English dictionaries.  Swedish schools teaching (very!) British English probably have something to do with my spelling as well.
+
== UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited (cont. from 2015) ==
:::: Changed the request on the [[User talk:BotFlightGear#FlightGear screenshot categories|bot page]] from Category:Screenshots of dialogues in FlightGear‎ to  [[:Category:Screenshots of dialogs in FlightGear‎]].
+
:::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 14:06, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
+
  
=== Having separate image categories or not? ===
+
While migrating my own unrelated MediaWiki instance, I may have stumbled upon "a" SQL issue blocking the creation of pages with non-latin characters in their titles. See:
One thing that keeps nagging me is that all Wikipedias I have been able to read and some I can hardly read (English, Swedish + German and French) have separate categories for files/images.  There is probably a reason for that (I am guessing at mainly ease of finding images for articles and possibly also for bandwidth reasons).
+
  
The upload wizard is borrowed from Wikimedia Commons <small>(but is it properly attributed?)</small> where pretty much all categories are for files/images.  While I am not aware of its technical details I see few if any efficient ways it could be modified to only or primarily suggest image categories.  As I see it it would require a ''fresh and updated'' list of categories that in one way or another would require some manual intervention.
+
* [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2015#UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited]]
 +
* [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2016#UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited]]
 +
* [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2019#Language flags on the main page]]
  
Two things I have done so far is to re-categorize images and that I have begun trying to link the nodes to the nodes in the branch with the article categories by putting the image categories in the article categories (this is done on a very small scale though).
+
If someone has access to the MySQL backend (command line or phpMyAdmin), could you check what the "Collation" of our database is set to?  For example:
  
Questions is though:  What is in the best interest of the users?  Should I keep on having them separate or should I just let it grow wild(er)?  It could be an interesting experiment though it would require a lot of work if it turns out less favourable.
+
<syntaxhighlight lang="sql">
 +
USE dbname;
 +
SELECT @@character_set_database, @@collation_database;
 +
</syntaxhighlight>
  
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 22:02, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
+
Or in phpMyAdmin the collation is given in the database listing.  My guess is that we are not using UTF-8.  That can be changed (after a backup) with:
  
 +
<syntaxhighlight lang="sql">
 +
ALTER DATABASE dbname CHARACTER SET utf8 COLLATE utf8_general_ci;
 +
</syntaxhighlight>
  
:I saw you implementing this at some of my airport screen-shots and immediately adopted it on other images. I think your idea of separating those categories would help us puting a link at the end of each article which says: "Media about :XY". Thats why I think all the other wikis provide separated categories. That's the only way to get linkable categories which only contains media.
+
Or in phpMyAdmin, select the databse of this wiki, click on the "Operations" tab, in the "Collation" box select "utf8_general_ci", and finally click on "Go". Hopefully this is the cause of this long standing and painful issue.
  
:--[[User:August|August]] ([[User talk:August|talk]]) 22:18, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
+
[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 03:33, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
  
== Conventions on discussion conclusions ==
+
: Hi Edward,
Sometimes proposals don't get the attention the proposer might have hoped for. Of course, everyone's involved in their projects, and following discussions in "recent changes" isn't easy, so nothing personal, my question is ''very practical''.
+
: I somehow missed all these previous reports :-( Sorry!
 +
: You're right. The database is in latin1. We're actually currently in the process of migrating some of our server work and updating. I will take care of setting the correct collation on that occasion.
 +
: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 04:24, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
  
Sometimes these proposals need help from others (like my [[User_talk:Bigstones/Essay:A plan for a reorganization of the wiki#Bot proposal .28request.3F.29|"remove redundant categories"]]) so it's pretty clear that one will have to wait and retry/insist for that. Some other times though (like my above "Category:Support" topic - with which btw I did some mess moving messages around) one could easily continue on his/her own. In such cases, I feel that lack/loss of attention means "Ok, I don't mind if you do that, in case, we'll discuss the results" (like for the FAQ update - btw, thanks to the reviewers of [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Frequently_asked_questions&oldid=71015 my cuts]). If this is correct, I'd like to add it to the [[Help:Maintenance]] page, because it could help getting more things done and avoid misunderstandings. Oh, and by what I said, if I don't get answers, I'll take it for granted :D
+
:: Great, that sounds exactly like this problem. Only pages with 'latin1' characters in their names can be edited. I really hope switching the collation to UTF-8 will fix the problem.  There must have been a MySQL server migration many years ago where the old database was UTF-8 and the import automatically changed the language to the server default of 'latin1', as many pages were created on this wiki with non-latin1 characters in the past. I see this with my MySQL database too - I have to switch back to UTF-8 after import into the new SQL database.
  
--[[User:Bigstones|Bigstones]] ([[User talk:Bigstones|talk]]) 12:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
+
:: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 06:00, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
  
: I have found the lack of feedback to be discouraging at times, but at other times I have just went ahead and done things the way I would like to have them done, like for example my reorganisation and extension of the help pages, as well as adding the "[[FlightGear wiki:Village pump|Discuss!]]" link to the left side menu.
+
== Needing an extra pair of eyes ==
 +
There is a problem with automatic categorization in {{tl|Autoflight Navigation}} that I can not seem to solve.
  
: I would guess that you draw the right conclusion with the statement that "Ok, I don't mind if you do that, in case, we'll discuss the results". The very most of the times that is the way to go.  The good thing with a wiki is that it is so easy to revert a change (i.e "View history" tab &rarr; Go to topmost edit &rarr; Click the "undo" link).  If if things go really wrong most things can be salvaged from the page history (though it can be a lot of work at times). ;-)
+
For details see [[Template talk:Autoflight Navigation#Automatic categorization seem broken]].
  
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 17:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:26, 10 September 2020 (EDT)
  
== Editing JavaScript files ? ==
+
: All done!  In summary, the {{tl|howto other}} template logic was completely broken and was operating as the {{tl|main other}} template instead!  Checking if the {{obr}}NAMESPACE{{cbr}} is set to {{obr}}ns:0{{cbr}} is not how you check for the "Howto" namespace.  As I don't know the numeric value of this namespace, I switched to comparing {{obr}}NAMESPACE{{cbr}} to the simple string 'Howto'.  So the template is now fixed.  We should see a lot of auto-categorisation additions and fixes now.  I also switched {{tl|Autoflight Navigation}} to use {{tl|namespace detect}} to simplify its logic.
  
: ''Moved here from [[Talk:Portal:Wiki#Editing JavaScript files ?]] ([http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Talk:Portal:Wiki&oldid=72290 permalink]) since this might affect all users.''
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 06:14, 11 September 2020 (EDT)
  
I think, at some point, I saw someone editing JavaScript files here (Johan_G or Gijs probably) - what is involved to do that ? Any links/pointers ? Okay, found something at [[MediaWiki:Common.js]] Is it also possible to create custom JS/plain text files without any wiki markup ? Are my privileges even sufficient ? --[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 21:11, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
+
:: Thank you som much for fixing that. :-)
 +
:: Did not think of comparing the namespace numbers between the templates.
 +
:: I was wondering where I found the numbers, but could not quite remember.  If I figure it out I will probably add the source for those at a suitable place, like under ''Technical details'' in ducumentation for {{tl|namespace detect}} or something like that, though using full names of the namespaces is probably the safer option.
 +
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 02:07, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
  
: Nope, was not me.  Javascript files is as far as I know currently limited to [[MediaWiki:Common.js]]. It is apparently possible to change some settings so that one can add "user javascript pages" (as well as "user Cascading Style Sheets"), see the WikiMedia Wiki pages [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgAllowUserJs Manual:$wgAllowUserJs] (and [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgAllowUserCss Manual:$wgAllowUserCss]).
+
== The Howto namespace ==
 +
: ''Copied here from [[Template talk:Autoflight Navigation]].''
  
: Both can be useful for testing stuff before including them in the "common" (i.e. site wide) files, as well as for personalizing the look, feel and functionalityI do not know what issues they could cause or if we have the permissions to change it.  Maybe Simon and Gijs are the ones who can do it.
+
To be honest, from the start I have considered the Howto namespace to be an abomination.  There is absolutely no need for it, as one could simply have articles in the main namespace with a Howto: prefix (IIRC they call this "user administered namespaces" or "pseudo namespaces" on Wikipedia). To not have to type the prefix, one could simply create redirects. Creating a separate Howto namespace have caused issues in the past, like that the search function per default only looks for articles in the Main namespaceIt is not entirely unlikely that what we see here might be some configuration issue as well.
  
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 04:40, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
+
Sorry for the rant. And thanks again.
  
== MediaWiki updated to 1.23.0 ==
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 06:29, 11 September 2020 (EDT)
  
I've updated MediaWiki to the latest stable release (1.23.0) today. I'm now updating all extensions, so some things may be broken temporarily. Please report bugs if you find any. For a list of changes, see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Release_notes/1.23
+
: I wouldn't call that a rant. It would be better on [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump]] though. To me 'Howto' here is simply a categorisation. Why is that categorisation even needed in the page title?  I never liked this namespace, specifically because the default search misses it, and there is a significant grey area of what you would categorise as a 'howto' or not. I think it would be better managed with a basic {{tl|howto}} template at the start of each of these articles which automatically adds [[:Category:Howto]]. If you take your discussion above over to the village pump, I'll copy this over there as well.
  
[[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 12:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 07:56, 11 September 2020 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 02:08, 12 September 2020


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FGW:VP

Welcome to the Village Pump. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the FlightGear wiki.

Please add new topics to the bottom of this page.

Old discussions should be moved to a FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.

New Portal: Embedded or Hardware (02/2020)

Suggestion: Dedicated portal for articles relating to embedded/hardware topics (which would be in line with numerous threads on the forum, as well as existing articles on the wiki). - Hooray (talk) 11:59, 17 February 2020 (EST)

That is slightly less complicated than you might think. What you would do is to create a new page with the prefix Portal: and a suitable name, say for example Portal:Hardware development, Portal:Cockpit hardware or Portal:DIY cockpit hardware, or maybe Portal:Hardware if you would also like to see commercial hardware there, and then copy and modify the content from a similar portal.
Hint: There is actually not a portal namespace, it is just a prefix. The portal pages are actually in the main namespaces, and thus function just like any other article page on the wiki.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 13:35, 10 March 2020 (EDT)
Though I think your Portal:Embedded might be more diffuse than Portal:Hardware for people that do not know what embedded software This is a link to a Wikipedia article is, I have still added it to the main page and added Category:Portals to it. It will get more use if people can find it. :-P
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 04:16, 14 March 2020 (EDT)

Use as few categories as possible

Always use as few categories as possible. Categories are a place in a structure rather than tags. Putting each page in a lot of categories will put a lot of of pages in each category. There is in particular no need to put a page in both a category and then in each category above that category.

Please see advice in Help:Your first article#Categories and maybe also Help:categories.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 13:04, 15 March 2020 (EDT)

Meta template and templates for commonly used logotypes and icons

Through a placeholder page (ugh!) and a edit summary Hooray suggested making a template for commonly used logotypes.

Cquote1.png placeholder/stub for all sorts of wiki related logos that may need to be updated over time, but that are referenced on multiple pages - so that we don't need to edit each and every page here.
Cquote2.png
Cquote1.png @Johan: could use your help with this, unless I can write the heuristics in Php or JavaScript ;-)
— Hooray, 11 April 2020‎, 08:04
Cquote2.png

I would guess you also intend it to be used for icons as well, for example the ready icons? Logotype/icon templates might not be a bad idea. Less typing is almost always good.

{{logo}} should probably be a meta template, a template used by other templates in this case by logotype templates. Meta templates are pretty common on MediaWiki wikis.

Essentially, there could be a set of logotype and icon templates, for example {{Compositor logo}}, {{FGInterface logo}}, {{Air refueling ready icon}} etc, that pass the image for the logotype, an alt text (for accessibility and when the image is not shown, for example due to browser settings) and a link to a relevant wiki page to {{logo}}. Possibly also optional parameters like other sizes etc. The meta template would then add the boilerplate stuff around that and set the size.

I would advise that having a suffix indicating the type of template, for example logo, icon like mentioned above or navigation (for navigation boxes), in essence having less ambiguous names, is generally a good idea.

I should mention that I am generally against placeholder pages.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 06:44, 12 April 2020 (EDT)

UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited (cont. from 2015)

While migrating my own unrelated MediaWiki instance, I may have stumbled upon "a" SQL issue blocking the creation of pages with non-latin characters in their titles. See:

If someone has access to the MySQL backend (command line or phpMyAdmin), could you check what the "Collation" of our database is set to? For example:

USE dbname;
SELECT @@character_set_database, @@collation_database;

Or in phpMyAdmin the collation is given in the database listing. My guess is that we are not using UTF-8. That can be changed (after a backup) with:

ALTER DATABASE dbname CHARACTER SET utf8 COLLATE utf8_general_ci;

Or in phpMyAdmin, select the databse of this wiki, click on the "Operations" tab, in the "Collation" box select "utf8_general_ci", and finally click on "Go". Hopefully this is the cause of this long standing and painful issue.

Bugman (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2020 (EDT)

Hi Edward,
I somehow missed all these previous reports :-( Sorry!
You're right. The database is in latin1. We're actually currently in the process of migrating some of our server work and updating. I will take care of setting the correct collation on that occasion.
Gijs (talk) 04:24, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
Great, that sounds exactly like this problem. Only pages with 'latin1' characters in their names can be edited. I really hope switching the collation to UTF-8 will fix the problem. There must have been a MySQL server migration many years ago where the old database was UTF-8 and the import automatically changed the language to the server default of 'latin1', as many pages were created on this wiki with non-latin1 characters in the past. I see this with my MySQL database too - I have to switch back to UTF-8 after import into the new SQL database.
Bugman (talk) 06:00, 9 September 2020 (EDT)

Needing an extra pair of eyes

There is a problem with automatic categorization in {{Autoflight Navigation}} that I can not seem to solve.

For details see Template talk:Autoflight Navigation#Automatic categorization seem broken.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 10:26, 10 September 2020 (EDT)

All done! In summary, the {{howto other}} template logic was completely broken and was operating as the {{main other}} template instead! Checking if the {{NAMESPACE}} is set to {{ns:0}} is not how you check for the "Howto" namespace. As I don't know the numeric value of this namespace, I switched to comparing {{NAMESPACE}} to the simple string 'Howto'. So the template is now fixed. We should see a lot of auto-categorisation additions and fixes now. I also switched {{Autoflight Navigation}} to use {{namespace detect}} to simplify its logic.
Bugman (talk) 06:14, 11 September 2020 (EDT)
Thank you som much for fixing that. :-)
Did not think of comparing the namespace numbers between the templates.
I was wondering where I found the numbers, but could not quite remember. If I figure it out I will probably add the source for those at a suitable place, like under Technical details in ducumentation for {{namespace detect}} or something like that, though using full names of the namespaces is probably the safer option.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 02:07, 12 September 2020 (EDT)

The Howto namespace

Copied here from Template talk:Autoflight Navigation.

To be honest, from the start I have considered the Howto namespace to be an abomination. There is absolutely no need for it, as one could simply have articles in the main namespace with a Howto: prefix (IIRC they call this "user administered namespaces" or "pseudo namespaces" on Wikipedia). To not have to type the prefix, one could simply create redirects. Creating a separate Howto namespace have caused issues in the past, like that the search function per default only looks for articles in the Main namespace. It is not entirely unlikely that what we see here might be some configuration issue as well.

Sorry for the rant. And thanks again.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 06:29, 11 September 2020 (EDT)

I wouldn't call that a rant. It would be better on FlightGear wiki:Village pump though. To me 'Howto' here is simply a categorisation. Why is that categorisation even needed in the page title? I never liked this namespace, specifically because the default search misses it, and there is a significant grey area of what you would categorise as a 'howto' or not. I think it would be better managed with a basic {{howto}} template at the start of each of these articles which automatically adds Category:Howto. If you take your discussion above over to the village pump, I'll copy this over there as well.
Bugman (talk) 07:56, 11 September 2020 (EDT)