FlightGear wiki - User contributions [en]

Switching default texture format to DDS

2014-09-05T12:06:24Z

Nine: /* Intel open source driver */

The FG development team is considering to '''switch the default format for textures from png to DDS'''. This would offer a number of significant advantages:

* DDS is a more compact format than png, hence the download size of the FG base package may be decreased
* Compressed DDS can be directly used by many graphics cards, reducing also GPU memory consumption
* DDS stores all texture resolution levels, in essence no lower resolution levels have to be generated when the texture is used, hence it loads much faster into memory
* The resolution levels ('mipmaps') can be customized, allowing for some interesting effects at no performance cost

Practically all commercial simulations use DDS for these reasons.

== Feedback needed - should FlightGear switch the defaults to DDS format for terrain texturing? ==

However, the DDS compression algorithm is patented, which means that it is not readily available for open source graphics drivers used by Linux distributions. Dependent on the specific hardware, this may or may not be a problem (modern graphics cards typically do not need the driver to process DDS, for older graphics cards there are non-patented workarounds available which decompress the DDS on the software level). The development team is concerned about making the FlightGear experience pleasant for all users, hence we would like to gather feedback how many users would be affected by a change in practice.

{{FGCquote
|let's collect some some feedback [on DDS usage in FlightGear] until late November and restart this topic. We probably know by then what we do for the next release. "Somebody" needs to collect the feedback, however.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32791750/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-03</nowiki>
}}
}}

If there are no problems reported, FG will change defaults to textures in DDS format with the 3.4 release, and then phase out the use of png textures.
In other words, a lack of feedback from end users might very well mean that future FlightGear versions may require DDS support and may not necessarily work for people with outdated hardware - so if you care about backward compatibility, please do get involved, test DDS support and provide feedback!

=== What we need you to do? ===

FlightGear already provides the simple option to test a DDS texture set. If you are running on Linux and use an open source graphics driver, please take 5 minutes to help during your next FG session:

# Open the dialog under View -> Rendering
# Under 'Terrain texture scheme', change the default 'Region-specific' to 'Global alternative (DDS format)'
# Press 'Okay' - FG will reload the terrain
# Do you see proper textures on the terrain (they may look different and may also not fit the location perfectly)? If yes, you're fine. If you see monochromatic, or even bright/pink, colors or other rendering artifacts, your system may have problems with DDS.
# Change back to the texture scheme you like best
# Enter your experiences in the list below

Thanks for your help!

== Tested hardware and graphics drivers ==

=== NVIDIA proprietary driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|GeForce GTX 670M
|310.19
|{{yes}}
|ThorstenR
|-
|GeForce GT 540M
|331.82
|{{yes}}
|Gijs
|-
|N13M-NS Optimus
|340.32
|{{yes}}
|Tom_ch
|-
|GeForce GT640
|343.13
|{{yes}}
|lumni1968
|-
|GeForce GTX 780 Ti
|340.52
|{{yes}}
|Avionyx
|-
|GeForce GT 750M
|331.38
|{{yes}}
|Dutchguy
|-
|GeForce GT 620 OEM
|331.38
|{{yes}}
|C-GGKV
|-
|GeForce GTX 650
|331.20
|{{yes}}
|dany93
|}

=== NVIDIA open source driver ===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|GeForce GT 630
|
|{{no}}
|[https://plus.google.com/111978238381658236898/posts/VYSusMLRiH2 Jakub Klawiter]
|-
|}

=== Intel proprietary driver ===

=== Intel open source driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!libtxc_dxtn installed?
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|HD Graphics 3000 (i7-2600K)
|10.2.6
|???
|{{yes}}
|cdesai
|-
|HD Graphics 3000 (i3-2330M)
|10.2.2
|???
|{{yes}}
|Flyhigh/saiarcot895
|}

=== ATI/AMD proprietary driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|ATI Radeon HD 6310
|14.6-1
|{{yes}}
|ZLSA
|}

=== ATI/AMD open source driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!libtxc_dxtn installed?
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|AMD Radeon HD 7950
|10.2.1
|???
|{{yes}}
|Saga
|
|-
|AMD Radeon R9 270X
|10.3~git20140805
|no
|{{no}}
|nine
|
|-
|AMD Radeon R9 270X
|10.3~git20140805
|yes
|{{yes}}
|nine
|}

== Sample test ==

=== DDS Test at the airport of Orio (Bergamo - Italy) ===

[[File:Terrain texture scheme DDS 01-2000.jpg|800px|thumb|Comparison of texture in relation to the three possible choices in "Rendering Options" -> "Terrain texture scheme"]]The final result, with all the "Shader Options" active, is not very satisfactory, I would say very poor. Apparently not check on any improvement in the speed of image loading. I think on modern machines with quad-core processors 16 GB, with latest graphics cards (NVIDIA 870) 6 GB, the loading of these images is not really a "bottleneck". I propose to insert the DDS functionality, but in a transparent way, ie convert "on the fly" the images before inserting them into the temporary memory, for example using the convert function of ImageMagick. However, I do not know if it really is a useful feature, I think there are many other things to do before this.

== Excerpts from the ongoing discussion ==

{{FGCquote
|Here is my suggestion how to proceed:

* Let's do your 1) and 2) on as many information channels we have.
* Collect the responses on a public place, I'd suggest a wiki page
* Do this for a well defined time frame. Is three month too much/too short?
* If we have the impression, it's safe to switch to DDS, define the dds texture sets as default, keeping the png sets as a fallback and publish how to use this fallback
* Keep this for one release.
* Depending on the feedback we get, keep it that way or move entirely to DDS.

Does that sound reasonable for everybody?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32788459/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Misc ==
{{FGCquote
|I'd propose [...] this process:
# Get out the information first that one can change materials files, where to do it and what the characteristics of the different sets are.
# Ask users (especially those running with ATI or Intel on Linux) nicely to do a quick check whether dds works fine.

I think we have an information management problem in relation to the user base - a frequent forum situation is that a user requests something that's already there, but the information is just not out. So if we even envision such a change, I would start spreading the relevant information basically yesterday.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787957/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Renk Thorsten</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== DDS Debate in 2012 ==

=== Legalities ===
{{See also|Talk:Switching default texture format to DDS#Using patented algorithms}}

{{FGCquote
|These kind of precompressed images limits their usage to a specific set of 
drivers. And no, due to the patent issues no open source code including ours 
is allowed to implement compression/decompression code for these image 
formats. Even if this is easy implementation wise.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|t is technically incorrect to provide these s3 patent 
precompressed textures to a driver that does not announce the apropriate 
extension and since we are not allowed to code something that deompresses 
this, I think we should avoid using this compression for all the provided 
models/textures. 
 
I think of a warning that is issued from the image loader in flightgear that 
detects when these precompressed textures are seen. So even people using 
drivers that just offer this extension have a chance to see that the provided 
textures will not work for others.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28612879/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-01</nowiki>
}}
}}

=== Portability Concerns ===
{{FGCquote
|These kind of precompressed images limits their usage to a specific set of 
drivers. And no, due to the patent issues no open source code including ours 
is allowed to implement compression/decompression code for these image 
formats. Even if this is easy implementation wise.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|And this is what I try to do now: 
Object against using these patented compression algorithms. 
I do not care for the on disk format of any image file we have. But the problem 
is that some kind of precompression that can be stored in these dds files 
cannot be used with other drivers than the closed ati and nvidia ones. 
As long as these patented compression techiques are not used, every OpenGL 
driver can use this and displays this fine. 
 
Think: Intel has the hugest marketshare in graphics today. If I remember 
right, they sell more than ati and nvidia together (*). This kind of change in 
effect rules out the majority of users as intel cannot work with these files.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|It's not limited to dds. If you use osgconv xxx.dds xxx.ivs you will probably 
have the same effect. So I think simply ommitting DDS is ok? 
 
Also, much more important, the comment is not about 'your video driver'. It is 
in your (Vivian) case even wrong. Your driver will display this fine. 
So, in the end I do not care if it is 'your particular video driver' that does 
not like this. You will just see this in the best case as the models look 
wrong, and in the worst case fgfs just crashes the driver if these textures 
are used. 
What I really care about is that these files are expected not to work on a huge 
amount of graphics boards out there. The point is to tell people doing 
textures that they should omit compression so that this message disapears.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678235/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I would like to have a flightgear that is by default just running on every 
average system. Having this run faster on a special configured system with some 
better configuration options and hand tuned hardware and drivers is very fine. 
But without tuning it must at least work in an acceptable way. 
 
I have checked in a change to flightgear to make the use of the compressed 
internal formats a starttime configuration option. 
I am still interrested if we have that hangs also with texture compression 
disabled and without providing precompressed dds textures?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28602775/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|this is the reason for the message. If your machine would refuse to display this you, 
developing that, would probably just say 'nice try, but it does not work' 
before you check in something. In the case it displays fine, you probably say 
'it works here, so I assume it works also for others, lets do'. 
And the message tells you, 'despite of just seeing this working on this 
current machine, it does not work for others'.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Seriously, I think plenty people not being on this list today and probably 
never will be in touch with anybody here, will run into this issue. 
People here are those few guys from the power users that want to develop this 
stuff. 
 
I am not going to discuss the patent stuff. Please search the mesa-dev archives 
for the discussion and see there why they think that the nvidia tools and 
other stuff out there cannot be used. Really - it is not that the code for that 
is too dificult or unavailable. I am not a lawyer and I cannot change this 
world - even if I would like to in this regard. 
 
I agree that techically for drivers/gpus supporting these compression formats 
it would be best to use these precompressed files.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Seriously, I think plenty people not being on this list today and probably 
never will be in touch with anybody here, will run into this issue. 
People here are those few guys from the power users that want to develop this 
stuff.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Your driver will display this fine. 
So, in the end I do not care if it is 'your particular video driver' that does 
not like this. You will just see this in the best case as the models look 
wrong, and in the worst case fgfs just crashes the driver if these textures 
are used. 
What I really care about is that these files are expected not to work on a huge 
amount of graphics boards out there. The point is to tell people doing 
textures that they should omit compression so that this message disapears.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678235/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

=== Approaches ===

{{FGCquote
|Well, the default f16 does not work anymore for example. 
I have also never tried the new textures, but I assume that these also contain 
precompressed data? Also you claimed that the old texture files start to bitrot 
comared to the new ones which makes me think that the new standard should be 
the dds files. This together makes me think that the dds files should replace 
the traditional image files.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Hmm, regarding dds. 
I have to say, that not all OpenGL drivers support texture compression, and 
the models with dds files, are those that I cannot display, because of that. 
And in fact this will not happen to the open source drivers before something 
about 2020 because of patent issues. 
 
Sorry to step in this so late - probably way too late - but is there a reason 
that the on disk format must be compressed? 
The previous strategy to have on disk an format that everybody can read and to 
make the driver compress them as needed/possible is better I think? 
 
So, for me the f16 lost its livery lately - where I can live with this for the 
f16, I hope that this does not happen to flightgear as a whole ...
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28594472/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-27</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Well, I hope that we can get rid of the compression. 
Can somebody with the apropriate tools convert the compressed textures to non 
compressed ones? That could still be dds, but dds without these compressions 
that produce the warning. So no problem with cubemaps in dds as long as the 
compression is not there. 
Then *everybody* is again able to use this stuff.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678109/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I can see several approaches: 
 
* Just do not use the patented compression stuff. The precomputed mipmaps could 
probably do the job of avoiding the hangs (hopefully? to be checked?). May be 
we could lower disk space usage by providing a dds.gz or similar wrapper? 
 
* If it's just the mipmaps. May be we can precompute the mipmaps using the cpu 
in the database loader thread. This would help all textures not only the ones 
that could be converted. May be this is the most generic solution. 
 
* Implement some kind of image lookup order that knows if the compressed files 
could be handled or not. On loading an image in case of available compression 
first try to find a dds file with the same name of the original one. That 
involves some 'magic' which often leads to problems but that could at least 
work.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28606576/
|title=<nowiki>[Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &
buildings)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-30</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Next step is to make sure that compression is not required to avoid the hangs. 
My favorite bet would be that then the new configure option regarding texture 
compression needs to be set to none.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28606576/
|title=<nowiki>[Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &
buildings)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-30</nowiki>
}}
}}
=== Precomputed mipmaps ===

{{FGCquote
|Could we do dds files without compression but with precomputed mipmaps? 
 
So at next, can you try out which combination of compression/provided 
mipmaps/forced simgear compression still work fine?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28603114/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|The 4. Method that I can imagine is to precompute the mipmaps in the loader. 
IIRC tests with some of the guys suffering from this problem, providing 
premipmapped but uncompressed dds files had helped to get a fluent viewer. 
The argument against providing these dds files in general was that these files 
are really huge because of not including any compression and having all the 
mipmaps. 
But that means we could at the point where the warning happens compute the 
mipmap levels on the cpu in the loader thread. osg::gluScaleImage could be 
used to do this I think (or something similar not requireing a context). This 
one is an imported version of the original glu function that is included in 
osg for running on an EGL stack which no longer provides GLU. 
That is take the image scale this to the 1st mipmap, take the 1.st mipmap and 
scale this to the 2. mipmap and so forth. 
 
This would have the advantage that the png's do not deviate from the dds files 
over time.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/29571679/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS usage in effects files</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-07-21</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I think then, computing mipmaps for any texture file on the CPU in the loader 
thread should globally improove the situation. 
Also avoiding the compression already in the files should help every use case. 
Except that the on disk memory consumption is higher. 
Well and except that the database loader has more work to do on the CPU.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28612897/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-01</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Doing that differently will provide some overhead that could be kept at a 
minimum I think: 
For the disk usage, I think gzip compressing these will work sufficiently fine. 
Ram usage of the images should not hurt too much. Sure the images are bigger 
in memory. But fgfs is not just about images - far from that. 
On the GPU, you can still use compression for the textures as the internal 
format. This is what flightgear tries to do if the extension is supported 
(checked by osg). 
 
The major point is that there are several ways that use slightly more 
resources to get around this problem. 
But once the patented compression is on disk, there is *no* way back for 
people not having this feature. 
 
If you have better ideas that do not rule out intel and the oss drivers, you 
are welcome!
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|On unix I usually get the gzip plugin installed by osg (osgdb_gz.so). Is this 
also the case for the default win32 case? Is there a osgdb_gz.dll or something 
along the lines in the directory containing the plugins? 
 
If yes, we can already tackle the size problem of the uncompressed dds files on 
disk by just gzip compressing these makging a xxx.dds.gz from a xxx.dds and 
just refering to xxx.dds.gz instead of xxx.dds. At least this works fine here. 
And I assume that this works fine for all unix like operating systems including 
mac?! 
James?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678235/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|What about solution 6 with (uncompressed premipmapped dds).gz? 
On linux this should work as long as you have zlib installed which could be 
regarded as a system library there. 
Can we rely on zlib being compield into our osg distributions on win32? We do 
need zlib in any case, it's mostly about teaching osg that it finds our zlib on 
configure and build the gz plugin.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/29571819/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS usage in effects files</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-07-21</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I implemented a mipmap control and generation tool in effects when I last updated 
the urban shader. For the moment, it relies on hardware when the average operator 
is used for all texture channels but it could easily be modified to compute 
all mipmap on the CPU. look the <mipmap-control> effect option and 
mipmap.[ch]xx in SG material lib
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28606692/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees
& buildings)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Frederic Bouvier</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-30</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Implementation ==

{{FGCquote
|As has been previously pointed out, the current DDS texture set is not 
simply the global png texture set converted. 
 
For our own sanity and those of the users, we need to ensure that there's 
an apples-to-apples comparison being made when we change the default. I 
therefore think we need to create a DDS version of the current default 
texture set.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|2) If we go down this path, we probably want to separate the underlying 
texture format from the materials.xml definition entirely. For example, we 
could simply remove the extention from the materials definition, and have 
the C++ code append the appropriate extension based on a separate property. 
This has a couple of advantages: 
a) Makes testing easier and materials definitions less error-prone. 
Assuming we have some batch job in place to generate dds textures, those 
working on materials definitions could continue to work with png textures, 
and only convert to dds as a final step (or indeed as part of the "make 
release" jobs). 
a) Avoids duplication of materials definitions. Having just spent quite a 
bit of time making the materials definitions more efficient, I'd like to 
avoid making it worse again! 
 
I'm quite happy to do the C++ coding required for this in the materials 
loader - it's probably pretty straightforward.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|That does leave the issue of what happens to the existing dds texture 
definitions where there are special mipmap layers. I'd suggest that we 
have some Clever Script (tm) that is able to work out whether the DDS or 
PNG version of a texture is the master, and then generate the other version 
from it. I admit that the PNG conversion of the DDS will lose some 
information in this process, but it would allow those without DDS support 
to at least use the textures.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|3) We need a sensible process for dealing with aircraft, which has been 
identified as a significant issue. Again, I think more aircraft developers 
find .png easier to deal with, and there are a lot of aircraft out there 
that would need conversion. It feels like we need some build scripts to 
"compile" aircraft to use DDS textures. 
 
A more far-fetched idea might be to have a cache of dds textures that are 
generated on-the-fly, or when aircraft are loaded by the aircraft center. 
Clearly that impacts initial load time the first time a new aircraft is 
loaded, and would increase the size of .fgfs/ directories massively, but it 
would remove the need for any work by aircraft/scenery developers and could 
be made optional. 

|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Challenges ==

{{FGCquote
|"dds on an open source driver (radeon and intel) I was forced to use radeon at some time, and it was fun, the planes were pink :) once libtxc-dxtn installed, dds were loaded fine again, so it can be used on open source if you are ok to use the lib." 
 
Unless there's some way to make sure Linux users have that lib installed automatically, I'd say that's a no. We can't have a random user guess what additional packages to install. And maybe someone can educate me - googling the lib, this appears to be working for mesa - which usually is what we try to avoid if users do 3d rendering via mesa for performance reasons? 
 
Also, what does 'If you are okay to use the lib' mean precisely? If that's some piece of code which circumvents a patented thing and isn't exactly legal and needs to be obtained from special servers outside the normal repo (sort of like the DVD decryption under Linux), then I doubt that's an option. Can anyone clarify?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32786414/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Renk Thorsten</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Another potential option would be to convert regions to .dds but keep 
both global-png and global-dds, but making that user-friendly would 
require a way to automatically detect lack of .dds support.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787117/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|On my system (Intel Ivybridge), DDS works with or without libtxc, but 
this may not be true of all Intel hardware. 

|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787117/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|You can specify the dependency on libtxc_dxtn, but then distributions like 
openSUSE cannot ship FlightGear anymore. libtxc_dxtn implements S3 texture 
compression which is patented in many parts of the world. Linux distributions 
therefore cannot ship it. You can easily find it in add-on repositories, but 
as I said, distributions would not be able to include FlightGear creating a 
huge hurdle to installation for users.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787143/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stefan Seifert</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Debian/Ubuntu's libtxc is libtxc-dxtn-s2tc, which claims to avoid the 
patent at a small cost in visual quality: 
https://github.com/divVerent/s2tc/wiki/libtxc_dxtn 
That site also states that modern hardware doesn't need this software 
fallback anyway (and hence won't hit either this quality loss or the 
slowness of any software decoder), but doesn't define "modern hardware".
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787296/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|The dds textures seem to have some advantages over our png textures and 
using them is tempting. 
But the points from Thorsten R. are good points and if there is any 
chance to have a step-wise transition to the new format, I'd prefer that 
path. 
 
Don't we have an alternate dds texture set already in fgdata that is 
enabled with an option? What about making this the default, keeping the 
png texture set as an alternate. That would get us reports from users 
unable to run dds textures and provide an easy fallback method.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787378/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|We currently have regions-png, global-png and global-dds; as I noted 
earlier, switching to regions-dds, global-png and global-dds has the 
issue that while changing the texture set is easy (dropdown in View > 
Rendering Options), knowing that one needs to do so may not be.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787717/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Can we invert the logic in, say, preferences.xml so xxx-dds is enabled 
by default and switching to xxx-png has to be done in rendering options? 
 
Torsten
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787787/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Changing the default (which is in preferences.xml) is easy: the problem 
is how do users with non-.dds-supporting hardware (if this exists) know 
they need to change back.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787851/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Conversion ==

{{FGCquote
|Automatic conversion script is welcome indeed. Also I'm pretty sure that we have some people here ready to convert a PNG to DDS as soon as you say "Hey boys I created a new PNG file, can you convert this file for me please ?" :-)
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32785592/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Clement de l'Hamaide</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|A few world about the conversion: once a png/rgb/jpg found, the script 
try to guess the suitable dds format: with or without alpha channel, 
bumpmap, if a .dds is allready found we just erase the png one, if not 
we use nvcompress to get the dds. After we change the textures name 
called in the differents files and that's it. There's a way to tell the 
script what to do for each file, if the automatic mode is a failure. 
 
I guess speaking theorically is not the best to make an opinion, so if 
some of you are interested to make a test, I will make a 3.2 minimal dds 
fgdata this we, once on my FG pc.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32785602/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>jean</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}
== Pros ==
{{FGCquote
|I always got a loading problem with png textures, large textures take 
seconds to load and convert, and that ruin my close flight where you 
can't afford to take pause in the air. 
that's why i did a batch script to convert to dds ALL the textures in 
the data, not only the matérial set, but everything. Now i only flight a 
dds version of flightgear, and am quite happy with it, that's why i 
propose to provide a dds fgdata for test, and maybe to make it an 
alternate download possibility.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32785602/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>jean</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Cons ==

{{FGCquote
|FG actually runs with dds textures, it just doesn't render anything reasonable, I believe you get monochromatic colors. But I don't expect the menu to be affected, it doesn't use textures.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787957/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Renk Thorsten</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|If it's relevant, I recall having S2TC compression problems when running Flightgear, and updating this package to a newer version manually (outside of the main repos) fixed the issue. I'm on an Intel HD 3000, but I'm guessing that Intel HD 4000 doesn't have this problem, since it seems to have better OpenGL and OpenCL support.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787875/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Saikrishna Arcot</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

[[Category:Core development projects]]

Switching default texture format to DDS

2014-09-05T12:05:07Z

Nine: /* ATI/AMD open source driver */

The FG development team is considering to '''switch the default format for textures from png to DDS'''. This would offer a number of significant advantages:

* DDS is a more compact format than png, hence the download size of the FG base package may be decreased
* Compressed DDS can be directly used by many graphics cards, reducing also GPU memory consumption
* DDS stores all texture resolution levels, in essence no lower resolution levels have to be generated when the texture is used, hence it loads much faster into memory
* The resolution levels ('mipmaps') can be customized, allowing for some interesting effects at no performance cost

Practically all commercial simulations use DDS for these reasons.

== Feedback needed - should FlightGear switch the defaults to DDS format for terrain texturing? ==

However, the DDS compression algorithm is patented, which means that it is not readily available for open source graphics drivers used by Linux distributions. Dependent on the specific hardware, this may or may not be a problem (modern graphics cards typically do not need the driver to process DDS, for older graphics cards there are non-patented workarounds available which decompress the DDS on the software level). The development team is concerned about making the FlightGear experience pleasant for all users, hence we would like to gather feedback how many users would be affected by a change in practice.

{{FGCquote
|let's collect some some feedback [on DDS usage in FlightGear] until late November and restart this topic. We probably know by then what we do for the next release. "Somebody" needs to collect the feedback, however.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32791750/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-03</nowiki>
}}
}}

If there are no problems reported, FG will change defaults to textures in DDS format with the 3.4 release, and then phase out the use of png textures.
In other words, a lack of feedback from end users might very well mean that future FlightGear versions may require DDS support and may not necessarily work for people with outdated hardware - so if you care about backward compatibility, please do get involved, test DDS support and provide feedback!

=== What we need you to do? ===

FlightGear already provides the simple option to test a DDS texture set. If you are running on Linux and use an open source graphics driver, please take 5 minutes to help during your next FG session:

# Open the dialog under View -> Rendering
# Under 'Terrain texture scheme', change the default 'Region-specific' to 'Global alternative (DDS format)'
# Press 'Okay' - FG will reload the terrain
# Do you see proper textures on the terrain (they may look different and may also not fit the location perfectly)? If yes, you're fine. If you see monochromatic, or even bright/pink, colors or other rendering artifacts, your system may have problems with DDS.
# Change back to the texture scheme you like best
# Enter your experiences in the list below

Thanks for your help!

== Tested hardware and graphics drivers ==

=== NVIDIA proprietary driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|GeForce GTX 670M
|310.19
|{{yes}}
|ThorstenR
|-
|GeForce GT 540M
|331.82
|{{yes}}
|Gijs
|-
|N13M-NS Optimus
|340.32
|{{yes}}
|Tom_ch
|-
|GeForce GT640
|343.13
|{{yes}}
|lumni1968
|-
|GeForce GTX 780 Ti
|340.52
|{{yes}}
|Avionyx
|-
|GeForce GT 750M
|331.38
|{{yes}}
|Dutchguy
|-
|GeForce GT 620 OEM
|331.38
|{{yes}}
|C-GGKV
|-
|GeForce GTX 650
|331.20
|{{yes}}
|dany93
|}

=== NVIDIA open source driver ===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|GeForce GT 630
|
|{{no}}
|[https://plus.google.com/111978238381658236898/posts/VYSusMLRiH2 Jakub Klawiter]
|-
|}

=== Intel proprietary driver ===

=== Intel open source driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|HD Graphics 3000 (i7-2600K)
|10.2.6
|{{yes}}
|cdesai
|-
|HD Graphics 3000 (i3-2330M)
|10.2.2
|{{yes}}
|Flyhigh/saiarcot895
|}

=== ATI/AMD proprietary driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|ATI Radeon HD 6310
|14.6-1
|{{yes}}
|ZLSA
|}

=== ATI/AMD open source driver ===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
!Card
!Driver
!libtxc_dxtn installed?
!DDS ok
!Reported by
|-
|AMD Radeon HD 7950
|10.2.1
|???
|{{yes}}
|Saga
|
|-
|AMD Radeon R9 270X
|10.3~git20140805
|no
|{{no}}
|nine
|
|-
|AMD Radeon R9 270X
|10.3~git20140805
|yes
|{{yes}}
|nine
|}

== Sample test ==

=== DDS Test at the airport of Orio (Bergamo - Italy) ===

[[File:Terrain texture scheme DDS 01-2000.jpg|800px|thumb|Comparison of texture in relation to the three possible choices in "Rendering Options" -> "Terrain texture scheme"]]The final result, with all the "Shader Options" active, is not very satisfactory, I would say very poor. Apparently not check on any improvement in the speed of image loading. I think on modern machines with quad-core processors 16 GB, with latest graphics cards (NVIDIA 870) 6 GB, the loading of these images is not really a "bottleneck". I propose to insert the DDS functionality, but in a transparent way, ie convert "on the fly" the images before inserting them into the temporary memory, for example using the convert function of ImageMagick. However, I do not know if it really is a useful feature, I think there are many other things to do before this.

== Excerpts from the ongoing discussion ==

{{FGCquote
|Here is my suggestion how to proceed:

* Let's do your 1) and 2) on as many information channels we have.
* Collect the responses on a public place, I'd suggest a wiki page
* Do this for a well defined time frame. Is three month too much/too short?
* If we have the impression, it's safe to switch to DDS, define the dds texture sets as default, keeping the png sets as a fallback and publish how to use this fallback
* Keep this for one release.
* Depending on the feedback we get, keep it that way or move entirely to DDS.

Does that sound reasonable for everybody?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32788459/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Misc ==
{{FGCquote
|I'd propose [...] this process:
# Get out the information first that one can change materials files, where to do it and what the characteristics of the different sets are.
# Ask users (especially those running with ATI or Intel on Linux) nicely to do a quick check whether dds works fine.

I think we have an information management problem in relation to the user base - a frequent forum situation is that a user requests something that's already there, but the information is just not out. So if we even envision such a change, I would start spreading the relevant information basically yesterday.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787957/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Renk Thorsten</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== DDS Debate in 2012 ==

=== Legalities ===
{{See also|Talk:Switching default texture format to DDS#Using patented algorithms}}

{{FGCquote
|These kind of precompressed images limits their usage to a specific set of 
drivers. And no, due to the patent issues no open source code including ours 
is allowed to implement compression/decompression code for these image 
formats. Even if this is easy implementation wise.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|t is technically incorrect to provide these s3 patent 
precompressed textures to a driver that does not announce the apropriate 
extension and since we are not allowed to code something that deompresses 
this, I think we should avoid using this compression for all the provided 
models/textures. 
 
I think of a warning that is issued from the image loader in flightgear that 
detects when these precompressed textures are seen. So even people using 
drivers that just offer this extension have a chance to see that the provided 
textures will not work for others.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28612879/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-01</nowiki>
}}
}}

=== Portability Concerns ===
{{FGCquote
|These kind of precompressed images limits their usage to a specific set of 
drivers. And no, due to the patent issues no open source code including ours 
is allowed to implement compression/decompression code for these image 
formats. Even if this is easy implementation wise.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|And this is what I try to do now: 
Object against using these patented compression algorithms. 
I do not care for the on disk format of any image file we have. But the problem 
is that some kind of precompression that can be stored in these dds files 
cannot be used with other drivers than the closed ati and nvidia ones. 
As long as these patented compression techiques are not used, every OpenGL 
driver can use this and displays this fine. 
 
Think: Intel has the hugest marketshare in graphics today. If I remember 
right, they sell more than ati and nvidia together (*). This kind of change in 
effect rules out the majority of users as intel cannot work with these files.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|It's not limited to dds. If you use osgconv xxx.dds xxx.ivs you will probably 
have the same effect. So I think simply ommitting DDS is ok? 
 
Also, much more important, the comment is not about 'your video driver'. It is 
in your (Vivian) case even wrong. Your driver will display this fine. 
So, in the end I do not care if it is 'your particular video driver' that does 
not like this. You will just see this in the best case as the models look 
wrong, and in the worst case fgfs just crashes the driver if these textures 
are used. 
What I really care about is that these files are expected not to work on a huge 
amount of graphics boards out there. The point is to tell people doing 
textures that they should omit compression so that this message disapears.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678235/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I would like to have a flightgear that is by default just running on every 
average system. Having this run faster on a special configured system with some 
better configuration options and hand tuned hardware and drivers is very fine. 
But without tuning it must at least work in an acceptable way. 
 
I have checked in a change to flightgear to make the use of the compressed 
internal formats a starttime configuration option. 
I am still interrested if we have that hangs also with texture compression 
disabled and without providing precompressed dds textures?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28602775/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|this is the reason for the message. If your machine would refuse to display this you, 
developing that, would probably just say 'nice try, but it does not work' 
before you check in something. In the case it displays fine, you probably say 
'it works here, so I assume it works also for others, lets do'. 
And the message tells you, 'despite of just seeing this working on this 
current machine, it does not work for others'.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Seriously, I think plenty people not being on this list today and probably 
never will be in touch with anybody here, will run into this issue. 
People here are those few guys from the power users that want to develop this 
stuff. 
 
I am not going to discuss the patent stuff. Please search the mesa-dev archives 
for the discussion and see there why they think that the nvidia tools and 
other stuff out there cannot be used. Really - it is not that the code for that 
is too dificult or unavailable. I am not a lawyer and I cannot change this 
world - even if I would like to in this regard. 
 
I agree that techically for drivers/gpus supporting these compression formats 
it would be best to use these precompressed files.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Seriously, I think plenty people not being on this list today and probably 
never will be in touch with anybody here, will run into this issue. 
People here are those few guys from the power users that want to develop this 
stuff.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Your driver will display this fine. 
So, in the end I do not care if it is 'your particular video driver' that does 
not like this. You will just see this in the best case as the models look 
wrong, and in the worst case fgfs just crashes the driver if these textures 
are used. 
What I really care about is that these files are expected not to work on a huge 
amount of graphics boards out there. The point is to tell people doing 
textures that they should omit compression so that this message disapears.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678235/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

=== Approaches ===

{{FGCquote
|Well, the default f16 does not work anymore for example. 
I have also never tried the new textures, but I assume that these also contain 
precompressed data? Also you claimed that the old texture files start to bitrot 
comared to the new ones which makes me think that the new standard should be 
the dds files. This together makes me think that the dds files should replace 
the traditional image files.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28604650/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Hmm, regarding dds. 
I have to say, that not all OpenGL drivers support texture compression, and 
the models with dds files, are those that I cannot display, because of that. 
And in fact this will not happen to the open source drivers before something 
about 2020 because of patent issues. 
 
Sorry to step in this so late - probably way too late - but is there a reason 
that the on disk format must be compressed? 
The previous strategy to have on disk an format that everybody can read and to 
make the driver compress them as needed/possible is better I think? 
 
So, for me the f16 lost its livery lately - where I can live with this for the 
f16, I hope that this does not happen to flightgear as a whole ...
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28594472/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-27</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Well, I hope that we can get rid of the compression. 
Can somebody with the apropriate tools convert the compressed textures to non 
compressed ones? That could still be dds, but dds without these compressions 
that produce the warning. So no problem with cubemaps in dds as long as the 
compression is not there. 
Then *everybody* is again able to use this stuff.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678109/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I can see several approaches: 
 
* Just do not use the patented compression stuff. The precomputed mipmaps could 
probably do the job of avoiding the hangs (hopefully? to be checked?). May be 
we could lower disk space usage by providing a dds.gz or similar wrapper? 
 
* If it's just the mipmaps. May be we can precompute the mipmaps using the cpu 
in the database loader thread. This would help all textures not only the ones 
that could be converted. May be this is the most generic solution. 
 
* Implement some kind of image lookup order that knows if the compressed files 
could be handled or not. On loading an image in case of available compression 
first try to find a dds file with the same name of the original one. That 
involves some 'magic' which often leads to problems but that could at least 
work.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28606576/
|title=<nowiki>[Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &
buildings)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-30</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Next step is to make sure that compression is not required to avoid the hangs. 
My favorite bet would be that then the new configure option regarding texture 
compression needs to be set to none.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28606576/
|title=<nowiki>[Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &
buildings)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-30</nowiki>
}}
}}
=== Precomputed mipmaps ===

{{FGCquote
|Could we do dds files without compression but with precomputed mipmaps? 
 
So at next, can you try out which combination of compression/provided 
mipmaps/forced simgear compression still work fine?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28603114/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving random trees & buildings</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-29</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|The 4. Method that I can imagine is to precompute the mipmaps in the loader. 
IIRC tests with some of the guys suffering from this problem, providing 
premipmapped but uncompressed dds files had helped to get a fluent viewer. 
The argument against providing these dds files in general was that these files 
are really huge because of not including any compression and having all the 
mipmaps. 
But that means we could at the point where the warning happens compute the 
mipmap levels on the cpu in the loader thread. osg::gluScaleImage could be 
used to do this I think (or something similar not requireing a context). This 
one is an imported version of the original glu function that is included in 
osg for running on an EGL stack which no longer provides GLU. 
That is take the image scale this to the 1st mipmap, take the 1.st mipmap and 
scale this to the 2. mipmap and so forth. 
 
This would have the advantage that the png's do not deviate from the dds files 
over time.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/29571679/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS usage in effects files</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-07-21</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I think then, computing mipmaps for any texture file on the CPU in the loader 
thread should globally improove the situation. 
Also avoiding the compression already in the files should help every use case. 
Except that the on disk memory consumption is higher. 
Well and except that the database loader has more work to do on the CPU.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28612897/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-01</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Doing that differently will provide some overhead that could be kept at a 
minimum I think: 
For the disk usage, I think gzip compressing these will work sufficiently fine. 
Ram usage of the images should not hurt too much. Sure the images are bigger 
in memory. But fgfs is not just about images - far from that. 
On the GPU, you can still use compression for the textures as the internal 
format. This is what flightgear tries to do if the extension is supported 
(checked by osg). 
 
The major point is that there are several ways that use slightly more 
resources to get around this problem. 
But once the patented compression is on disk, there is *no* way back for 
people not having this feature. 
 
If you have better ideas that do not rule out intel and the oss drivers, you 
are welcome!
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678784/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|On unix I usually get the gzip plugin installed by osg (osgdb_gz.so). Is this 
also the case for the default win32 case? Is there a osgdb_gz.dll or something 
along the lines in the directory containing the plugins? 
 
If yes, we can already tackle the size problem of the uncompressed dds files on 
disk by just gzip compressing these makging a xxx.dds.gz from a xxx.dds and 
just refering to xxx.dds.gz instead of xxx.dds. At least this works fine here. 
And I assume that this works fine for all unix like operating systems including 
mac?! 
James?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28678235/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees &</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-01-15</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|What about solution 6 with (uncompressed premipmapped dds).gz? 
On linux this should work as long as you have zlib installed which could be 
regarded as a system library there. 
Can we rely on zlib being compield into our osg distributions on win32? We do 
need zlib in any case, it's mostly about teaching osg that it finds our zlib on 
configure and build the gz plugin.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/29571819/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS usage in effects files</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Mathias Fröhlich</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2012-07-21</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|I implemented a mipmap control and generation tool in effects when I last updated 
the urban shader. For the moment, it relies on hardware when the average operator 
is used for all texture channels but it could easily be modified to compute 
all mipmap on the CPU. look the <mipmap-control> effect option and 
mipmap.[ch]xx in SG material lib
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/28606692/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS texures (Was: Improving random trees
& buildings)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Frederic Bouvier</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2011-12-30</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Implementation ==

{{FGCquote
|As has been previously pointed out, the current DDS texture set is not 
simply the global png texture set converted. 
 
For our own sanity and those of the users, we need to ensure that there's 
an apples-to-apples comparison being made when we change the default. I 
therefore think we need to create a DDS version of the current default 
texture set.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|2) If we go down this path, we probably want to separate the underlying 
texture format from the materials.xml definition entirely. For example, we 
could simply remove the extention from the materials definition, and have 
the C++ code append the appropriate extension based on a separate property. 
This has a couple of advantages: 
a) Makes testing easier and materials definitions less error-prone. 
Assuming we have some batch job in place to generate dds textures, those 
working on materials definitions could continue to work with png textures, 
and only convert to dds as a final step (or indeed as part of the "make 
release" jobs). 
a) Avoids duplication of materials definitions. Having just spent quite a 
bit of time making the materials definitions more efficient, I'd like to 
avoid making it worse again! 
 
I'm quite happy to do the C++ coding required for this in the materials 
loader - it's probably pretty straightforward.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|That does leave the issue of what happens to the existing dds texture 
definitions where there are special mipmap layers. I'd suggest that we 
have some Clever Script (tm) that is able to work out whether the DDS or 
PNG version of a texture is the master, and then generate the other version 
from it. I admit that the PNG conversion of the DDS will lose some 
information in this process, but it would allow those without DDS support 
to at least use the textures.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|3) We need a sensible process for dealing with aircraft, which has been 
identified as a significant issue. Again, I think more aircraft developers 
find .png easier to deal with, and there are a lot of aircraft out there 
that would need conversion. It feels like we need some build scripts to 
"compile" aircraft to use DDS textures. 
 
A more far-fetched idea might be to have a cache of dds textures that are 
generated on-the-fly, or when aircraft are loaded by the aircraft center. 
Clearly that impacts initial load time the first time a new aircraft is 
loaded, and would increase the size of .fgfs/ directories massively, but it 
would remove the need for any work by aircraft/scenery developers and could 
be made optional. 

|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32797669/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stuart Buchanan</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-04</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Challenges ==

{{FGCquote
|"dds on an open source driver (radeon and intel) I was forced to use radeon at some time, and it was fun, the planes were pink :) once libtxc-dxtn installed, dds were loaded fine again, so it can be used on open source if you are ok to use the lib." 
 
Unless there's some way to make sure Linux users have that lib installed automatically, I'd say that's a no. We can't have a random user guess what additional packages to install. And maybe someone can educate me - googling the lib, this appears to be working for mesa - which usually is what we try to avoid if users do 3d rendering via mesa for performance reasons? 
 
Also, what does 'If you are okay to use the lib' mean precisely? If that's some piece of code which circumvents a patented thing and isn't exactly legal and needs to be obtained from special servers outside the normal repo (sort of like the DVD decryption under Linux), then I doubt that's an option. Can anyone clarify?
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32786414/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Renk Thorsten</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Another potential option would be to convert regions to .dds but keep 
both global-png and global-dds, but making that user-friendly would 
require a way to automatically detect lack of .dds support.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787117/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|On my system (Intel Ivybridge), DDS works with or without libtxc, but 
this may not be true of all Intel hardware. 

|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787117/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|You can specify the dependency on libtxc_dxtn, but then distributions like 
openSUSE cannot ship FlightGear anymore. libtxc_dxtn implements S3 texture 
compression which is patented in many parts of the world. Linux distributions 
therefore cannot ship it. You can easily find it in add-on repositories, but 
as I said, distributions would not be able to include FlightGear creating a 
huge hurdle to installation for users.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787143/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Stefan Seifert</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Debian/Ubuntu's libtxc is libtxc-dxtn-s2tc, which claims to avoid the 
patent at a small cost in visual quality: 
https://github.com/divVerent/s2tc/wiki/libtxc_dxtn 
That site also states that modern hardware doesn't need this software 
fallback anyway (and hence won't hit either this quality loss or the 
slowness of any software decoder), but doesn't define "modern hardware".
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787296/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|The dds textures seem to have some advantages over our png textures and 
using them is tempting. 
But the points from Thorsten R. are good points and if there is any 
chance to have a step-wise transition to the new format, I'd prefer that 
path. 
 
Don't we have an alternate dds texture set already in fgdata that is 
enabled with an option? What about making this the default, keeping the 
png texture set as an alternate. That would get us reports from users 
unable to run dds textures and provide an easy fallback method.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787378/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|We currently have regions-png, global-png and global-dds; as I noted 
earlier, switching to regions-dds, global-png and global-dds has the 
issue that while changing the texture set is easy (dropdown in View > 
Rendering Options), knowing that one needs to do so may not be.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787717/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Can we invert the logic in, say, preferences.xml so xxx-dds is enabled 
by default and switching to xxx-png has to be done in rendering options? 
 
Torsten
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787787/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Torsten Dreyer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|Changing the default (which is in preferences.xml) is easy: the problem 
is how do users with non-.dds-supporting hardware (if this exists) know 
they need to change back.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787851/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Rebecca Palmer</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Conversion ==

{{FGCquote
|Automatic conversion script is welcome indeed. Also I'm pretty sure that we have some people here ready to convert a PNG to DDS as soon as you say "Hey boys I created a new PNG file, can you convert this file for me please ?" :-)
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32785592/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Clement de l'Hamaide</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|A few world about the conversion: once a png/rgb/jpg found, the script 
try to guess the suitable dds format: with or without alpha channel, 
bumpmap, if a .dds is allready found we just erase the png one, if not 
we use nvcompress to get the dds. After we change the textures name 
called in the differents files and that's it. There's a way to tell the 
script what to do for each file, if the automatic mode is a failure. 
 
I guess speaking theorically is not the best to make an opinion, so if 
some of you are interested to make a test, I will make a 3.2 minimal dds 
fgdata this we, once on my FG pc.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32785602/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>jean</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}
== Pros ==
{{FGCquote
|I always got a loading problem with png textures, large textures take 
seconds to load and convert, and that ruin my close flight where you 
can't afford to take pause in the air. 
that's why i did a batch script to convert to dds ALL the textures in 
the data, not only the matérial set, but everything. Now i only flight a 
dds version of flightgear, and am quite happy with it, that's why i 
propose to provide a dds fgdata for test, and maybe to make it an 
alternate download possibility.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32785602/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>jean</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

== Cons ==

{{FGCquote
|FG actually runs with dds textures, it just doesn't render anything reasonable, I believe you get monochromatic colors. But I don't expect the menu to be affected, it doesn't use textures.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787957/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] .dds textures (was Unused and/or sourceless textures‏)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Renk Thorsten</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

{{FGCquote
|If it's relevant, I recall having S2TC compression problems when running Flightgear, and updating this package to a newer version manually (outside of the main repos) fixed the issue. I'm on an Intel HD 3000, but I'm guessing that Intel HD 4000 doesn't have this problem, since it seems to have better OpenGL and OpenCL support.
|{{cite web |url=http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/32787875/
|title=<nowiki>Re: [Flightgear-devel] Download size,
and hardware support (was .dds textures)</nowiki>
|author=<nowiki>Saikrishna Arcot</nowiki>
|date=<nowiki>2014-09-02</nowiki>
}}
}}

[[Category:Core development projects]]

Supported Video Cards

2014-01-30T07:27:52Z

Nine: /* AMD/ATI */

{{Stub}}

= Video cards for flight simulation =

== General considerations ==

!!! Note: Legacy '''integrated 3D GPUs or video cards using less than 512MB of dedicated video memory for 3D graphics should be avoided''' for any high-end 3D simulations or hardcore gaming !!!

This page is meant to provide a list of those '''video cards''' that are known to have good [[OpenGL]] support to run the latest versions of [[FlightGear]], based on contents taken from [[Hardware Recommendations]]. Please help maintain this list so that fellow FlightGear users can more easily make hardware decisions.

When buying or updating a graphics card for a computer system, over 512MB of dedicated video memory (i.e. VRAM) is preferred for advanced 3D gaming, with at least 1024MB being recommended as of 08/2012.

Basically, you should be fine with any Nvidia or AMD/ATI products having 512-1024MB of *dedicated* video memory for 3D graphics. However, you need to take into account that some of the newer features in FlightGear may not work as expected or may not even work altogether with older hardware, especially Intel-based graphics card (GMA).

== Support for Unix-like operating systems ==

If you are using FlightGear with a Unix-like operating system (i.e. Linux, BSD, Solaris, SGI, etc.), check for the latest video driver that fully supports your graphics card or integrated GPU. When using free and open source drivers, support is generally better with AMD graphics cards than with nVidia products, because of differences in the manufacturers' policies towards providing documentation for their hardware. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS] [http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_nvidia_15way&num=1] As progress on the free drivers has been significant in recent months, try to stay as up to date as possible to get the best results. That means use most recent distribution versions instead of long term supported ones.
Given the fact that there are such alternate "proprietary" vs. "free" implementations, please mention the one you are using when adding cards to the list below.

== Graphic Cards recommended for FlightGear 2.10+ ==
=== NVIDIA ===
* Quadro K5000M
* Quadro K4000M
* Quadro K3000M
* Quadro 5010M
* Quadro 4000M
* Quadro 3000M
* Quadro K5000
* Quadro K4000
* Quadro K2000D
* Quadro K2000
* Quadro K600
* Quadro 6000
* Quadro 5000
* Quadro 4000
* Quadro 2000
* Quadro 600
* Quadro FX 5800
* Quadro FX 5600
* Quadro FX 4800
* Quadro FX 4600
* Quadro FX 3800
* Quadro FX 3700
* Quadro CX
* Quadro VX 200
* GeForce GTX TITAN
* GeForce GTX 780M
* GeForce GTX 770
* GeForce GTX 690
* GeForce GTX 680
* GeForce GTX 670
* GeForce GTX 660
* GeForce GTX 650
* GeForce GTX 590
* GeForce GTX 580
* GeForce GTX 570
* GeForce GTX 560
* GeForce GTX 555
* GeForce GTX 550 Ti
* GeForce GTX 480
* GeForce GTX 470
* GeForce GTX 465
* GeForce GTX 460
* GeForce GTS 450
* GeForce GTX 295
* GeForce GTX 285
* GeForce GTX 275
* GeForce GTX 260
* GeForce GTS 250
* GeForce 9800 GTX
* GeForce 8800 GTX

=== AMD/ATI ===
* FirePro S10000
* FirePro S9000
* FirePro S7000
* FirePro W9000
* FirePro W8000
* FirePro W7000
* FirePro W5000
* FirePro W600
* FirePro R5000
* FirePro V7900
* FirePro V5900
* FirePro V4900
* Radeon HD 7990
* Radeon HD 7970
* Radeon HD 7950
* Radeon HD 7870
* Radeon HD 7850
* Radeon HD 7770
* Radeon HD 7750
* Radeon HD 6990
* Radeon HD 6970
* Radeon HD 6950
* Radeon HD 6930
* Radeon HD 5970
* Radeon HD 5870
* Radeon HD 5850
* Radeon HD 5830
* Radeon HD 5670 (with free radeon driver, kernel 3.13, Mesa 10.1)
* Radeon HD 4870 X2
* Radeon HD 4850 X2
* Radeon HD 4870
* Radeon HD 4860
* Radeon HD 4850
* Radeon HD 4830
* Radeon HD 4770
* Radeon HD 4730
* Radeon X1950 (runs smoothly with free radeon driver, version 6.14.4)

== Troubleshooting Rendering Issues ==

If you get strange visuals, disable shaders in the View > Rendering Options dialog.

For problems with graphics cards or GPUs, see FlightGear's Graphics support forum: [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewforum.php?f=37]

==== External links ====
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_NVIDIA_Graphics_Processing_Units Comparison of NVIDIA Graphics Processing Units]

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_Graphics_Processing_Units Comparison of ATI Graphics Processing Units]

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units Comparison_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units]

== Related content ==
* [[Howto: Improve Framerates]]

[[Category:Hardware]]

Problematic video cards

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{{stub}}

= Introduction =

When building a new system or buying hardware for a computer that is specifically intended to run FlightGear, it seems like a good idea to avoid these cards and instead check out [[Hardware Recommendations]] or more specifically [[Supported Video Cards]].

You might still be able to run FlightGear despite having a problematic video card/chip, but you will not be able to use certain features and/or decrease overall details. See [[Settings for slower graphics cards]] for a list of possible fixes and workarounds.

''This list is incomplete. Please help to expand it by editing the page and adding further chipset models and the kind of issues they experience!''

= ATI =

This is for models from ATI/AMD.

=== Linux ===
* All legacy ATI Radeon GPUs before the ATI Radeon HD 5000 series, as official driver support for those legacy GPUs were dropped by AMD.
** The AMD Catalyst 9.3 display driver can be installed on Linux to support the ATI Radeon 9500 Series through ATI Radeon X1900/X2100 Series.
** The AMD Catalyst 13.1 display driver can be installed on Linux to support the AMD Radeon HD 2000/3000/4000 related video cards or notebook GPUs. [http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_catalyst_legacy2&num=1]
However the free radeon drivers are feature complete for these hardware generations and perform quite well.

=== Windows ===
* AMD has dropped support for cards older than the HD5000 series. The last AMD Catalyst display driver available for these cards can, however, be used without problems on Windows.

= Intel GMA =
The following Intel GMA integrated graphic processors (IGPs) are insufficient to support the advanced OpenGL 2.1+ features (i.e. shaders, etc.) in FlightGear 2.10 and higher [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2866&p=25018&hilit=intel+gma#p25013]:

* Intel GMA 500
* Intel GMA 600
* Intel GMA 900
* Intel GMA 950
* Intel GMA 965
* Intel GMA 3000
* Intel GMA 3100
* Intel GMA 3150
* Intel GMA 3600
* Intel GMA 3650
* Intel GMA 4500
* Intel GMA X3000
* Intel GMA X3100
* Intel GMA X3500
* Intel GMA X4500/X4500HD/X4500MHD
* Intel HD 2000
* Intel HD 2500
* Intel HD 3000
* Intel HD 4000

[[Category:Hardware]]

Supported Video Cards

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{{Stub}}

= Video cards for flight simulation =

== General considerations ==

!!! Note: Legacy '''integrated 3D GPUs or video cards using less than 512MB of dedicated video memory for 3D graphics should be avoided''' for any high-end 3D simulations or hardcore gaming !!!

This page is meant to provide a list of those '''video cards''' that are known to have good [[OpenGL]] support to run the latest versions of [[FlightGear]], based on contents taken from [[Hardware Recommendations]]. Please help maintain this list so that fellow FlightGear users can more easily make hardware decisions.

When buying or updating a graphics card for a computer system, over 512MB of dedicated video memory (i.e. VRAM) is preferred for advanced 3D gaming, with at least 1024MB being recommended as of 08/2012.

Basically, you should be fine with any Nvidia or AMD/ATI products having 512-1024MB of *dedicated* video memory for 3D graphics. However, you need to take into account that some of the newer features in FlightGear may not work as expected or may not even work altogether with older hardware, especially Intel-based graphics card (GMA).

== Support for Unix-like operating systems ==

If you are using FlightGear with a Unix-like operating system (i.e. Linux, BSD, Solaris, SGI, etc.), check for the latest video driver that fully supports your graphics card or integrated GPU. When using free and open source drivers, support is generally better with AMD graphics cards than with nVidia products, because of differences in the manufacturers' policies towards providing documentation for their hardware. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS] [http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_nvidia_15way&num=1] As progress on the free drivers has been significant in recent months, try to stay as up to date as possible to get the best results. That means use most recent distribution versions instead of long term supported ones.
Given the fact that there are such alternate "proprietary" vs. "free" implementations, please mention the one you are using when adding cards to the list below.

== Graphic Cards recommended for FlightGear 2.10+ ==
=== NVIDIA ===
* Quadro K5000M
* Quadro K4000M
* Quadro K3000M
* Quadro 5010M
* Quadro 4000M
* Quadro 3000M
* Quadro K5000
* Quadro K4000
* Quadro K2000D
* Quadro K2000
* Quadro K600
* Quadro 6000
* Quadro 5000
* Quadro 4000
* Quadro 2000
* Quadro 600
* Quadro FX 5800
* Quadro FX 5600
* Quadro FX 4800
* Quadro FX 4600
* Quadro FX 3800
* Quadro FX 3700
* Quadro CX
* Quadro VX 200
* GeForce GTX TITAN
* GeForce GTX 780M
* GeForce GTX 770
* GeForce GTX 690
* GeForce GTX 680
* GeForce GTX 670
* GeForce GTX 660
* GeForce GTX 650
* GeForce GTX 590
* GeForce GTX 580
* GeForce GTX 570
* GeForce GTX 560
* GeForce GTX 555
* GeForce GTX 550 Ti
* GeForce GTX 480
* GeForce GTX 470
* GeForce GTX 465
* GeForce GTX 460
* GeForce GTS 450
* GeForce GTX 295
* GeForce GTX 285
* GeForce GTX 275
* GeForce GTX 260
* GeForce GTS 250
* GeForce 9800 GTX
* GeForce 8800 GTX

=== AMD/ATI ===
* FirePro S10000
* FirePro S9000
* FirePro S7000
* FirePro W9000
* FirePro W8000
* FirePro W7000
* FirePro W5000
* FirePro W600
* FirePro R5000
* FirePro V7900
* FirePro V5900
* FirePro V4900
* Radeon HD 7990
* Radeon HD 7970
* Radeon HD 7950
* Radeon HD 7870
* Radeon HD 7850
* Radeon HD 7770
* Radeon HD 7750
* Radeon HD 6990
* Radeon HD 6970
* Radeon HD 6950
* Radeon HD 6930
* Radeon HD 5970
* Radeon HD 5870
* Radeon HD 5850
* Radeon HD 5830
* Radeon HD 4870 X2
* Radeon HD 4850 X2
* Radeon HD 4870
* Radeon HD 4860
* Radeon HD 4850
* Radeon HD 4830
* Radeon HD 4770
* Radeon HD 4730
* Radeon X1950 (runs smoothly with free radeon driver, version 6.14.4)

== Troubleshooting Rendering Issues ==

If you get strange visuals, disable shaders in the View > Rendering Options dialog.

For problems with graphics cards or GPUs, see FlightGear's Graphics support forum: [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewforum.php?f=37]

==== External links ====
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_NVIDIA_Graphics_Processing_Units Comparison of NVIDIA Graphics Processing Units]

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_Graphics_Processing_Units Comparison of ATI Graphics Processing Units]

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units Comparison_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units]

== Related content ==
* [[Howto: Improve Framerates]]

[[Category:Hardware]]

Hardware recommendations

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These '''hardware recommendations for [[FlightGear]]''' are based on community feedback, be sure to consult other sources before making serious decisions regarding computer hardware.

You may also want to check out the following article on building your own FlightGear box based on decommissioned and refurbished server: [[Howto: Build a cheap FlightGear box]].

Also see: [[FlightGear Benchmark]]

== Recommended hardware for FlightGear 2.10+ ==
* A screen with a resolution of at least 1024x768 @32bpp (most GUI dialogs cannot be used otherwise currently)
* A 3D video card (with AMD or Nvidia chipset) with support for [[OpenGL]] 2.1 or better and at least 1 Gb of dedicated DDR3+ (DDR5 preferred) VRAM (i.e. 512 Mb VRAM minimum). Flightgear requires a '''OpenGL 2.1-compliant''' hardware accelerated 3D video card to run at reasonable frame-rates. Most modern PCs have hardware accelerated 3D cards. If your FlightGear video is not running smoothly, see [[Configuring OpenGL]]. See [[Supported Video Cards]]) for a list of video cards known to work with FlightGear. Note that cards with working shader support will enable FlightGear to run with more visual effects. If you are serious about running FlightGear, you should avoid Intel HD/GMA cards at all costs - these are integrated chipsets that provide only basic OpenGL/GLSL support.
* At least 1-2 Gb '''free''' RAM (and more is better). FlightGear uses more than 500 Mb of RAM by default. If less free RAM is available, FlightGear would be slowed down significantly due to OS swapping. When buying a new computer, you shouldn't buy computers with less than 4-6 Gb of total RAM these days.
* CPU: At least a dual/quad core processor with ~2 GHz each, 64bit architecture (and operating system) recommended (multi-core processors have benefits for some FlightGear components such as the threaded tile loader). When buying a new computer, buying at least a quad core computer (i.e. i7) is a good idea these days.
* 2 Gb HD space for a minimum installation (the installer download itself is about 800MB), approx. 10 Gb if you want to compile it yourself, plus up to 8 Gb for optional world-wide scenery. More space is required for people wanting to check out the latest base package from [[Git]]. People using [[Scripted Compilation on Linux Debian/Ubuntu]], will approximately need 30 gb of disk space in total.
* A 3 button mouse or 2 button mouse with scroll wheel
* An optional sound card, Soundblaster compatible, preferably with EAX support
* An optional [[joystick]]/yoke and/or pedals - Gameport or USB (HID compatible), see <tt>[[$FG_ROOT]]/Input</tt> for a list of input hardware known to work with FlightGear.

== NVIDIA ==
Stay away from nVidia GPUs with a low second digit (x20, x40). Higher 2nd digit means more CUDA cores.

The number of CUDA cores matters much more than a few Mhz in frequency, since you can process more, in parallel.
Also watch out for bus width, as that has a big impact on data throughput. The more CUDA cores it has, the better. A GTX680 is lots and lots and lots more important than a CPU with a zillion cores.

In case of doubt, go for an older generation x60 (460, or 560), even a 260 would be much more of an improvement than the 620. Basically, Nvidia cards compile GLSL shaders and OpenCL kernels into CUDA kernels (sort of), so more CUDA kernels = more shader power.

Whatever GPU (and other hardware) you get, first of all make sure that it is fully supported by your OS of choice.
Thorsten mentioned in another thread that he purchased a computer with an NVIDIA GTX670 that ended up not being fully supported under Linux, so I'd suggest to be really careful here.

== Notebooks ==
If you are interested in running FlightGear on a notebook, you may also want to check out [[Notebooks known to run FlightGear]].

== Incompatible Hardware ==
A list of video cards that may not properly run FlightGear can be found at [[Problematic Video Cards]].

== Related content ==
* [[Supported Video Cards]]
* [[3D Video Introduction]]
* [[Configuring OpenGL]]
* [[Troubleshooting Problems]]

[[Category:Hardware|Recommendations]]

[[pl:Wymagania systemowe‎]]
[[fr:Hardware_Recommendations]]