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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]]|[[/Archive 2013|2013]]|[[/Archive 2014|2014]]|[[/Archive 2015|2015]]|[[/Archive 2016|2016]]|[[/Archive 2017|2017]]|[[/Archive 2018|2018]]|[[/Archive 2019|2019]]|[[/Archive 2020|2020]]}}
 
{{shortcut|FGW:VP}}
 
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Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
 
Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
  
 
Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
 
Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
  
Old discussion should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
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Old discussions should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
 
 
== Welcome template? ==
 
I have been thinking about suggesting a welcome template, for example named {{obr}}welcome{{cbr}}, to place on top of (at least) new users user discussion pages.
 
 
 
It should welcome the (new) user
 
 
 
In addition, it should probably mention and/or link to pages mentioning:
 
* The introduction page/tutorial (Hmm, I do not think I did finish that one. See [[Help talk:Tutorial]] ([http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Help_talk:Tutorial&oldid=70843 perm])).
 
* Help pages
 
* How to use categories (in particular not like #tags, ;-) but also that image and article categories should be separate, but link to each other)
 
* The portals
 
* The style manual
 
* Discussion pages and where to discuss what:
 
** How to use discussion pages
 
** The wiki in general:  The village pump (this page)
 
** Wiki articles:  Article discussion pages
 
** Wiki user actions:  User discussion pages
 
 
 
Maybe it should also mention that FGAddon aircraft, effects, other features etc. (except for their articles) and their bugs should be discussed on the forum, unless developers say otherwise, and that core features should be discussed on the developer mailing list and core bugs on the bug tracker.
 
 
 
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 20:31, 30 January 2016 (EST)
 
 
 
: I think this is a great idea.  A nice concise summary with links to help a new user navigate the FlightGear jungle would be a great addition.  It should however remain very short with simple sentences - while being complete - as many users are not native speakers.  So maybe there should be translations of the template with manually added links at the bottom for easy access to all the translations?
 
 
 
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 03:35, 12 February 2016 (EST)
 
 
 
== Permanently removing spam bots ==
 
For permanently removing spam bots, has the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] Mediawiki extension been considered?  I use that regularly on [http://wiki.nmr-relax.com my own wiki], though there we have also reverted to communicating to the person via email before manually granting access (probably not an option here), as all of the Mediawiki captcha methods were recently cracked.
 
  
[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 03:15, 12 February 2016 (EST)
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== MediaWiki updated to 1.35.1 ==
 +
Hi all,
  
: Oh, for the extension, we simply have a user called 'Spam bot' in a blocked state, and merge the spam bot accounts into this one, deleting the old account.
+
We've just updated MediaWiki (our wiki software) to version 1.35.1. The update comes with a couple of nice new features, such as [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:VisualEditor a visual editor] that considerably lowers the entry barrier (no need to learn wiki markup!). We've also fixed the issue that prevented users from [[FlightGear_wiki:Village_pump/Archive_2020#UTF-8_language_pages_cannot_be_edited_.28cont._from_2015.29|editing certain non-Latin articles]] and enabled TLS so your connection is now secured with HTTPS.
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 03:20, 12 February 2016 (EST)
 
  
:: I'd use the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AbuseFilter abuse filter extension] instead (much more powerful and automated) - other users have also proposed different remedies, see [http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=28734 this forum thread]. Anyway, Gijs is going to upgrade MediaWiki shortly and review the current anti-spam measures.
+
Although we've tested the update, chances are that we've missed certain scenarios. Please let me know if something isn't working as expected.
:: -- [[User:Elgaton|ElGaton]] ([[User talk:Elgaton|<tt>talk</tt> to me]]) 06:26, 13 February 2016 (EST)
 
  
::: A lot of the spam bots are using their name as advertising nowadays, so the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] extension is the only one I know which will allow a user and associated name to be permanently deleted.
+
Cheers,
  
::: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 12:04, 14 February 2016 (EST)
+
[[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 16:59, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
  
:::: The problem now is that they're also adding the information to the page title, so that it will still show up in the deletion logs [http://wiki.flightgear.org/Special:Log/delete] in other words, there's still some SEO juice associated with deleted entries ... Another idea would be to allow admins to temporarily disable wiki registrations/article creation, e.g. if more than 2 admins agree, this could be done to protect the wiki from spam attacks.
+
PS: Now that we're back in sync, you may expect more frequent updates again.
  
::::: Hooray, you should sign your posts ;)  The bots don't target the deletion logs, as that's a little pointless. It's a Special:* page, and the default Mediawiki robots.txt file tells all search engines to not index these pages.  User pages, page histories, etc. are however normally indexed.
+
: The only issues I have noted so far is that
 +
:* It seems the visual editor, when editing discussion pages, can only be used when adding a new topic, but not when editing an existing one.
 +
:* Section editing is off by default (though I think it might have been previously as well).
 +
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 15:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
  
::::: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 14:36, 19 February 2016 (EST)
+
:: Hi Johan,
 +
::* I believe that's the way they've designed it (it also works like that on Wikipedia), but I'll see if that can be changed.
 +
::* What do you mean with "section editing"? I can see <code>[ edit | edit source ]</code> links at each section title?
 +
:: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 15:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
  
:: The point was not what the bots are targeting, but what shows up in the logs - i.e. SEO-wise - Gijs' article blacklist stuff should help with that hopefully. PS: I could not find the signature button on the mobile device I am using, and I am not too good at remembering the correct number of tildes ;-) [[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 15:04, 19 February 2016 (EST)
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::: Section editing was off by default for me after the update (at least when looking in the preferences; I did open the preferences before I went through any articles).
 +
::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:33, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
  
== WIP vs. Under construction ==
+
: Thank you very much!  The 6 year old UTF-8 bug is finally gone!!  Everything else is looking good to me. No strange Scribuntu/lua errors from the infoboxes, SyntaxHighlight works, collapsible boxes work. Great job!
I have been beginning to miss the under construction template[http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Template:Under_Construction&direction=prev&oldid=46229] more and more (though I could it definitively could be improved).
 
  
I have begun to appreciate the need to differentiate between letting readers that a page is to be considered a yet to be finished construction site (though we in a way have that through the {{tl|incomplete}} template) and letting the reader (and other editors) that a page will receive a large amount of work for some hours or even days, usually the use for {{tl|WIP}}.
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: I did get one error: "Error contacting the Parsoid/RESTBase server: http-bad-status" when trying to edit.  This was triggered by switching from the visual editor to the source editor using the menu bar that appears in the visual editor.  But I fixed this by turning off the visual editor in my preferences.
  
In summary i miss templates giving a clear distinction between conditions akin to "Under construction" and "Caution - Wet floors", rather than "being worked on" and "could need more work".
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 21:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  
[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:11, 17 February 2016 (EST)
+
:: Hm, I cannot reproduce that here. Did it happen at a specific page? Can you try to reproduce it and provide a recipe?
 +
::[[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 10:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  
== [[Fr/Pilote automatique]] ==
+
: Oh, just one thing if this is possible, can we have a [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgFavicon favicon] set like the forum and the [https://flightgear.org main website]?
Bonjour,
 
  
Je viens de créer la page de traduction en français de l'article original en anglais [[Autopilot]]. Vu mes faibles compétences en matière de pilotage, vu que je n'ai pas sur ma version téléchargée d'avion avec un pilote automatique, la traduction doit souffrir quelques approximations, si ce n'est des contresens plus ennuyeux. Si quelques bonnes âmes plus qualifiées pouvaient me faire la grâce d'une relecture... merci d'avance.
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 21:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  
Cordialement, et Hop ! --[[User:F-WTSS|F-WTSS]] ([[User talk:F-WTSS|talk]]) 15:30, 18 February 2016 (EST)
+
:: Good one, done!
 +
:: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 10:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  
== MediaWiki updated to 1.26.2 ==
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== Parameter listings in template documentation ==
I've updated MediaWiki to the latest stable release (1.26.2) today. I've still got to update some of the extensions, so there may be regressions for now. Please report bugs if you find any. For a list of changes, see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Release_notes/1.26
+
I noted that the skeleton examples with all parameters have been removed in some cases.
  
[[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 10:47, 19 February 2016 (EST)
+
I very much prefer to still having a copyable skeleton template (with prefilled month, year, and/or date when those parameters exist) before the listing of parameters, rather than having to copy a fully filled out filled out example and remove everything I do not need or have to change. It feels very unnecessary.
  
: Cheers!  I was hoping that it would solve the uneditable Chinese, Russian, and other non-latin character-based pages (Polish strangely as well), but unfortunately [[FlightGear_wiki:Village_pump/Archive_2015#UTF-8_language_pages_cannot_be_edited|that issue remains]].
+
On the other hand I do like the template data stuff very much, even though it is few extra steps.
  
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 10:54, 19 February 2016 (EST)
+
[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 11:41, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  
:: Hm, looks that will require quite some attention indeed. I'm afraid that'll has to wait for now.
+
: Hi Johan,
:: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 12:29, 19 February 2016 (EST)
+
: I'm not sure if you know this, but you can now add templates through the VisualEditor. If you press "Insert > Template" from the toolbar, you get a nice popup to help you fill in the template and it can also pre-fill stuff for you (e.g., the date in [[:Template:Delete]]). The templatedata stuff on the template page is used to expand this popup form and drive the auto-fill, so most templates will not yet leverage it to the fullest. You can add/edit templatedata by clicking the "Manage TemplateData" button at the top of the edit page of templates. See the documentation at {{mediawiki|Help:TemplateData}} (that page is unfortunately quite messy, I know) and {{mediawiki|Extension:TemplateData}}.  
 +
: I feel like we should encourage people as much as possible to use the VisualEditor, as it can help prevent mistakes or incomplete templates. Would this remove the need to have copy & pastable templates? Maybe we'll just have to try and see. There's lots of new stuff to discover and tweak :-)
 +
: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 10:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
  
=== Nasal Syntaxhighlighting ===
+
== Removing the "Goal" heading from template documentation ==
: Thanks for your efforts, btw: Nasal syntax highlighting is gone again.
+
As we will likely go through and edit most of the template documentation to replace the current documentation of template parameters with template data, I would like to also remove the ''Goal'' heading from the template documentation and move that up to being a regular lead section.
: {{unsigned|17:22, 19 February 2016‎|Hooray}}
 
  
::: Unfortunately this time it isn't me forgetting to copy a file. The SyntaxHighlight extension no longer uses GeSHi, but has switched to Pygments. This means our Nasal mapping no longer works and has to be re-written. If anyone is interested, be my guest. See http://pygments.org/docs/lexerdevelopment/
+
I feel that the heading is largely redundant and have previously stuck to it mostly for consistency.
::: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 12:29, 19 February 2016 (EST)
 
  
:: We can use the ECMAScript/JavaScript lexer[http://pygments.org/docs/lexers/#lexers-for-javascript-and-related-languages] for now, my suggestion would be to copy that over to a file so that we can work on a custom Nasal lexer (Syntax  is almost identical, with a few different keywords, and many others being irrelevant). What is missing/different can be obtained from other lexers that are similar, e.g. [http://pygments.org/docs/lexers/#lexers-for-other-c-like-languages] [[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 15:45, 19 February 2016 (EST)
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 11:48, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  
:: Okay, here's the better/quick&easy way: We have Nasal support for some fairly popular editors, like [[http://wiki.flightgear.org/Howto:Syntax_highlighting_for_Nasal#Vim|vim]](originally created by Melchior), listed at [[Howto:Syntax_highlighting_for_Nasal]] - there are various free converters available that will read such a syntaxhighlighting file and convert it to a pygments class, e.g. see: https://github.com/honza/vim2pygments [[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 16:00, 19 February 2016 (EST)
+
: Agree!
 +
: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 10:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 10:37, 18 February 2021


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FGW:VP

Welcome to the Village Pump. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the FlightGear wiki.

Please add new topics to the bottom of this page.

Old discussions should be moved to a FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.

MediaWiki updated to 1.35.1

Hi all,

We've just updated MediaWiki (our wiki software) to version 1.35.1. The update comes with a couple of nice new features, such as a visual editor that considerably lowers the entry barrier (no need to learn wiki markup!). We've also fixed the issue that prevented users from editing certain non-Latin articles and enabled TLS so your connection is now secured with HTTPS.

Although we've tested the update, chances are that we've missed certain scenarios. Please let me know if something isn't working as expected.

Cheers,

Gijs (talk) 16:59, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

PS: Now that we're back in sync, you may expect more frequent updates again.

The only issues I have noted so far is that
  • It seems the visual editor, when editing discussion pages, can only be used when adding a new topic, but not when editing an existing one.
  • Section editing is off by default (though I think it might have been previously as well).
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 15:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Johan,
  • I believe that's the way they've designed it (it also works like that on Wikipedia), but I'll see if that can be changed.
  • What do you mean with "section editing"? I can see [ edit | edit source ] links at each section title?
Gijs (talk) 15:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Section editing was off by default for me after the update (at least when looking in the preferences; I did open the preferences before I went through any articles).
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 10:33, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you very much! The 6 year old UTF-8 bug is finally gone!! Everything else is looking good to me. No strange Scribuntu/lua errors from the infoboxes, SyntaxHighlight works, collapsible boxes work. Great job!
I did get one error: "Error contacting the Parsoid/RESTBase server: http-bad-status" when trying to edit. This was triggered by switching from the visual editor to the source editor using the menu bar that appears in the visual editor. But I fixed this by turning off the visual editor in my preferences.
Bugman (talk) 21:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Hm, I cannot reproduce that here. Did it happen at a specific page? Can you try to reproduce it and provide a recipe?
Gijs (talk) 10:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Oh, just one thing if this is possible, can we have a favicon set like the forum and the main website?
Bugman (talk) 21:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Good one, done!
Gijs (talk) 10:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Parameter listings in template documentation

I noted that the skeleton examples with all parameters have been removed in some cases.

I very much prefer to still having a copyable skeleton template (with prefilled month, year, and/or date when those parameters exist) before the listing of parameters, rather than having to copy a fully filled out filled out example and remove everything I do not need or have to change. It feels very unnecessary.

On the other hand I do like the template data stuff very much, even though it is few extra steps.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 11:41, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Johan,
I'm not sure if you know this, but you can now add templates through the VisualEditor. If you press "Insert > Template" from the toolbar, you get a nice popup to help you fill in the template and it can also pre-fill stuff for you (e.g., the date in Template:Delete). The templatedata stuff on the template page is used to expand this popup form and drive the auto-fill, so most templates will not yet leverage it to the fullest. You can add/edit templatedata by clicking the "Manage TemplateData" button at the top of the edit page of templates. See the documentation at mw:Help:TemplateData (that page is unfortunately quite messy, I know) and mw:Extension:TemplateData.
I feel like we should encourage people as much as possible to use the VisualEditor, as it can help prevent mistakes or incomplete templates. Would this remove the need to have copy & pastable templates? Maybe we'll just have to try and see. There's lots of new stuff to discover and tweak :-)
Gijs (talk) 10:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Removing the "Goal" heading from template documentation

As we will likely go through and edit most of the template documentation to replace the current documentation of template parameters with template data, I would like to also remove the Goal heading from the template documentation and move that up to being a regular lead section.

I feel that the heading is largely redundant and have previously stuck to it mostly for consistency.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 11:48, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Agree!
Gijs (talk) 10:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)