Difference between revisions of "FlightGear wiki:Village pump"

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(Archiving discussions ending in 2017 and 2018)
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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]]|[[/Archive 2013|2013]]|[[/Archive 2014|2014]]|[[/Archive 2015|2015]]|[[/Archive 2016|2016]]|[[/Archive 2017|2017]]|[[/Archive 2018|2018]]}}
 
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Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
 
Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
  
 
Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
 
Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
  
Old discussion should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
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Old discussions should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
 
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== 2018 ==
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=== Captcha ===
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Hi all! I need to fill the captcha box for each edit or new page in this wiki. I think for registered users isn't necessary. I will be glad if its removed. Thanks
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=== Loss of thumbnails! ===
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This is a rather catastrophic issue.  I have made an Internet Archive snapshot of the front page to illustrate:  https://web.archive.org/web/20181213094322/http://wiki.flightgear.org/Main_Page.  Note all the text "Error creating thumbnail: Unable to save thumbnail to destination".  I don't see anything in the wiki history that might cause this.  Has there been a recent infrastructure update?  Or is there a disk full issue or failure occurring on the server?
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[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 04:31, 13 December 2018 (EST)
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: As already said on the mailing list:
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: Thanks for reporting! Apparently we had run out of inodes due to expired sessions not being deleted. Should be fixed now.
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: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 07:18, 14 December 2018 (EST)
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== 2017 ==
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=== Build Templates ===
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I only just realized that we're unnecessarily duplicating information in most build related articles by separately mentioning build dependecies instead of using a shared template, which would also be easier to update/maintain should the build requirements change (think osg 3.4), which would also mean that it would be easier to maintain correct URLs for each depenedncy, while also having a way to nicely keep dependencies for different fgfs versions - so probably a worthwile thing to do...
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-[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 07:17, 31 December 2017 (EST)
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=== New Portals (Dec/2017) ===
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Looking at the forum/devel list, two more portals may make sense:
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* RC
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* Cockpit Building
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Thoughts / ideas ?
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-[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 10:22, 29 December 2017 (EST)
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=== Newsletter templates (June/2017) ===
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Referring to Johan's comments at [https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=32405&start=15#p313099]:
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Is there anything we can do to unify newsletters and changelogs without requiring major additions to the wiki in the form of plugins/addons ?
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Specifically, I was wondering if something along these lines would be worthwhile to discuss:
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* Create a basic template-based structure to add standardized announcements/news
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* These would be standardized based on category (core, aircraft, scenery, canvas, Nasal etc), inspired by recent changelogs/newsletters
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* Move specific text to sub-templates, so that we can easily localize/translate those using a handful of templates
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* support optional screenshots/youtube links
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* support optional fields to be added/excluded in a given mode (newsletter vs. changelog)
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In other words, we would review our published newsletters and changelogs and determine the common structure that could be re-implemented in the form of templates, and then come up with a handful of templates to add items in a standardized fashion, e.g. along these lines:
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* category
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* new/updated/removed feature
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* headline
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* common text
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* changelog specific text
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* newsletter specific text
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* screenshots
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* videos
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* link for additional information
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Something like this could be easily implemented without much wiki magic, and it could be also easily translated at the template level
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Thoughts / ideas ?
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-[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 06:40, 2 July 2017 (EDT)
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: I will start slightly off topic with that I actually consider the current newsletter format to be slightly more complicated than it really needs to be. This is mostly due to the handcrafted table of contents replacing the automatically added one.  If we go back a few years a wiki newsletter page was done exactly as any other wiki page using the same way to add headers and with an automatically generated table of contents.
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: To illustrate the above, compare the [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_January_2010&action=edit|January 2010 newsletter] (plain article style, one template for the header), the intermediate [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_January_2011&action=edit|January 2011 newsletter] (one additional template to move the ToC right and change the text flow) and the later [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_January_2015&action=edit|January 2015 newsletter] (discarding the automatic ToC for a handcrafted one using a template for each main section and subsections added by hand.)  Even if that is only so much resistance, it can be what stops a contributor.
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: What I was referring to with
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: {{cquote|I think it would be technically possible to make templates that could simplify adding new newsletter blanks (but I have said that for years without doing anything about it :oops: ).}}
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: was that one can make templates that will import a page blank prepared with regular sections and subsections (that technique have been used on English Wikipedia for adding template documentation.)
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: In essence such a newsletter blank could have some of this prepared and some commented out suggestions for how to add a new section and how to add images and embedded videos etc.
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: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 09:14, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
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::: I found my way back to some documentation on what I mentioned above.[https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php#Edit_and_submit][https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Creating_pages_with_preloaded_text]
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::: One would basically make a subpage to the template (say <tt><nowiki>{{Newsletter-new}}</nowiki></tt>) with the text to be preloaded (which is the term used) on the subpage (<tt>Template:Newsletter-new/Newsletter_blank</tt>) and link to it like this <tt><nowiki>http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_<month>_<year>&action=edit&preload=Template:Newsletter-new/Newsletter_blank</nowiki></tt>.
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:::The new newsletter template could simply have a link "Click here to create the next newsletter".  It needs to be on another page than the newsletter itself though, for example on a page describing how to contribute to the newsletter.
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::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 09:43, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
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:: I totally agree, while I appreciate the appearance of the new newsletter template, I always found it cumbersome/tedious to actually edit the newsletter compared to the old way. And I am all for automation. Then again, we have been suggesting/requesting certain plugins to be installed, but unfortunately to no avail so far. Speaking in general, it would be great if we could identify some of the recurring tasks on the wiki and find a way to automate most of these. For instance, being able to add contents to one page that shows up on other pages would also be useful, as this could greatly simplify writing the changelog - imagine adding stuff to the newsletter, which is then automagically added to the proper changelog. However, as usual it seems manpower is our primary constraint, Curt does not seem to have the corresponding privileges here and Gijs is basically n/a these days. What is really needed is an additional wiki admin, someone with Simon's privileges. And I would suggest we nominate bugman for that position :-)  - [[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]])
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::: Yikes, this actually works: http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_November_2020&action=edit&preload=Talk:Next_newsletter  -[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]])
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:::: An early newsletter template draft is now available in my sandbox.
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:::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 07:09, 11 November 2017 (EST)
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:::: I got around to polish it a bit more now: [[User:Johan G/Template:This months newsletter]]
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:::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 12:32, 19 November 2017 (EST)
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::::hi! If you Johan that you're more experienced can prepare Newsletter templates and pages to facilitate translations without need to create descentralised templates and duplicated pages, it would be nice and step forward to non English-speaker users. What you think about be able to do it for December Newsletter? Thank you so much for your work for templates, pages and the wiki!--[[User:Catalanoic|Catalanoic]] ([[User talk:Catalanoic|talk]]) 13:15, 10 December 2017 (EST)
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::::: Sorry for the late reply.
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::::: ''Yes'', a centralized newsletter can be done rather easily.  We could add {{tl|LangSwitch}} templates to the sections in the newsletter template (hopefully users adding other sections to a particular newsletter will see what is going on and copy it).  It should then be a matter of creating an empty page with a language prefix and [[Help:Glossary#T|transclude]] the newsletter there as if it was a template.
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::::: ''The downsides'' are that the newsletter will be more complicated to edit (raising the threshold for new editors and stopping a few of them), that we most likely will not be able to edit just a section (as the section headings will need to be in the language templates as the need to be translated as well), and that the page will be larger to retrieve as you will always download all languages to view or edit the page.  I do not think it will be worth it.
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::::: ''However'', if we get to the point that we have a template preloading a newsletter blank as discussed earlier in this topic (which seems very likely), we should probably have one for each of the languages someone can translate it to.  I think it would be much, much better to centralize this template.
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::::: ''In short:''  With the approach above the newsletter can be made so that there is a centralized version. But I do not think it is worth the large downsides and think that would be better to instead have a centralized template preloading a newsletter blank for a specific language.
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::::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 23:48, 21 July 2018 (EDT)
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:::::: Hi, currently the German newsletter gets translated like every normal article here on a new page. Works great. I don't think the newsletter would benefit from a centralised Newsletter using {{tl|LangSwitch}} as
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::::::* you also need to create a <nowiki>[[Es/FG News Marzo 2019]]</nowiki> page every month to view the translated content on it
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::::::* it invites to write a new article in your language and we need to find someone to translate it back to english
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::::::* wiki code already is a challenge for new authors, LangSwitch would make it even worse!
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:::::: My [[User:Skybike#Wiki_Sandbox|sandbox experiments]] take another approach:
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::::::*There is a ''draft to prelaod'' called ''Newsletter Example'' in [[User:Skybike/Template:This months newsletter/Newsletter example|English]] and another one in [[User:Skybike/Template:This months newsletter/De/Newslettervorlage|German]]
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::::::*A {{obr}}[[User:Skybike/Template:This months newsletter|This months newsletter]]{{cbr}} template selects the language based on {{tl|LangSwitch}} or the parameter "lang=". (When typing <code>{{obr}}<small>:User:Skybike/Template:</small>This months newsletter{{cbr}}</code> on a german page like [[de/Hauptseite]] it preloads the [[User:Skybike/Template:This months newsletter/De/Newslettervorlage|German Newsletter Example]] to create the current German newsletter [[de/FlightGear Newsletter Juni 2018]])
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::::::*As Catalanoic mentioned {{tl|Newsletter-header}} got translated into the descentralised template {{tl|De/Newsletter-header}} long time ago. In my sandbox is a new header {{obr}}[[User:Skybike/Template:Newsletter-header-translate|Newsletter-header-translate]]{{cbr}}. It uses {{tl|LangSwitch}} and the obove preload templates. (Its down compartible to {{tl|Newsletter-header}})
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::::::All these templates should work. Like <code>{{obr}}<small>:User:Skybike/Template:</small>This months newsletter|date=2018-11{{cbr}}</code> {{:User:Skybike/Template:This months newsletter|subpage-to=User:DeleteMe|date=2018-11}} and by adding <code>lang=de</code>: {{:User:Skybike/Template:This months newsletter|subpage-to=User:DeleteMe|date=2018-11|lang=de}}.
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::::::Legoboyvdlp already created [[FlightGear Newsletter September 2018‎]] with it.(Surprised me, need to change the header template there as it links to my sandbox) Note the "create next edition" in the upper right of the header there. But temporarily a new language could use my sandbox as well, just create a new newsletter blank and translate [[User:Skybike/Template:This months newsletter|This months newsletter]] and [[User:Skybike/Template:Newsletter-header-translate|Newsletter-header-translate]].
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::::::[[User:Skybike|Skybike]] ([[User talk:Skybike|talk]]) 10:10, 22 July 2018 (EDT)
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== Using Template:Convert ==
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while looking at the [[Lockheed_Martin_F-35B_Lightning_II]], I noted the use of units that we could automatically have converted for us using the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Convert convert template] from wikipedia... i'm assuming that we can do that, right? so below is an example of how it would be used and how it would look... i've left the original entry in place for final result comparison...
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<syntaxhighlight>
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=== Performance Data ===
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* '''Maximum Speed:''' 1,200 mph {{convert|1200|mph|kt|abbr=on}}
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* '''Rate of climb:''' classified
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* '''Service Ceiling:''' 60,000 ft {{convert|60000|ft|m|abbr=on}}
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* '''Range:''' 1,200 mi {{convert|1200|mi|km|abbr=on}}
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</syntaxhighlight>
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::=== Performance Data ===
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::* '''Maximum Speed:''' 1,200 mph {{convert|1200|mph|kt|abbr=on}}
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::* '''Rate of climb:''' classified
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::* '''Service Ceiling:''' 60,000 ft {{convert|60000|ft|m|abbr=on}}
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::* '''Range:''' 1,200 mi {{convert|1200|mi|km|abbr=on}}
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'''NOTE:''' i've copied this from my talk page to bring everything together here in one place as suggested on the forum by bugman...
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: This is easy, see http://wiki.flightgear.org/Special:Import ;)
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: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 18:15, 5 September 2017 (EDT)
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: And here is the Wikipedia export page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export.  You just export from one and import from the other.  Quite a few templates were created in this way.
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: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 06:21, 6 September 2017 (EDT)
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:: <strike>is this something i should do? i don't want to mess anything up ;) </strike>
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:: NVM... i'm not an admin so i cannot import :)
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:: [[User:Wkitty42|Wkitty42]] ([[User talk:Wkitty42|talk]]) 10:58, 6 September 2017 (EDT)
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::: Looking at the template source at Wikipedia and on from there, I see that it have a not so small dependency tree, starting with a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module:Convert&action=edit nearly 4000 line lua module] :-/
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::: Something rather simpler can probably be built with what we already have (though it will take time).
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::: What do we ''really'' need?
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::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 11:01, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
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:::: whoa! i didn't know that convert template was that involved... maybe it does a whole lot more conversions than i was looking at to use on this site...
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:::: as far as "need" goes, we don't really need it but i thought it would be nice to put standard numerics and have a template to list the different conversions... other than needing to be added to pages where it would be appropriate, it would standardize their display on the page...
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:::: [[User:Wkitty42|Wkitty42]] ([[User talk:Wkitty42|talk]]) 11:38, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
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::::: Maybe I should rephrase myself, as I did not intend to kill the conversation.
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::::: What do we need?  Something like {{obr}}'''convert'''|value|from-unit|to-unit|''decimals''|''hide-unit''{{cbr}} used like {{obr}}convert|15|m/s|fps{{cbr}} to get "49 fps"?
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::::: I think it is very much possible to do with what we have.  It basically abstracts to a matrix of statements from the two unit switches and math done with Mediawiki's [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions##expr #expr parser function] ([https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Help:Extension:ParserFunctions&oldid=2559944##expr perm]).
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::::: ICAO Annex 4 could give some pointers for units, abbreviations and conversion factors.
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::::: Sounding a bit like Horay here, but I think converting between the the most used units could most probably be done ''well'' within a couple hundred lines of (well formatted and commented) template code (including user documentation).
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::::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 05:04, 11 November 2017 (EST)
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::::: An early convert template draft is now available in my sandbox.
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::::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 09:17, 11 November 2017 (EST)
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== Welcoming template ==
 
== Welcoming template ==

Revision as of 06:51, 24 May 2019


Archives
2012, 2013
2014, 2015
2016, 2017
2018

Shortcut
FGW:VP

Welcome to the Village Pump. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the FlightGear wiki.

Please add new topics to the bottom of this page.

Old discussions should be moved to a FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.

Welcoming template

I have had a shelved draft of a welcoming template laying in a subpage for quite a while that I have dusted off and rewritten.

It has a welcoming message and some links I hope will be useful to new users (and perhaps not so new ones as well). The idea is that when some of us sees that there is a new user we will add that template to the top of the new users discussion page. I am not sure about whether we should wait till the user have made some edits (to see if it is a bot) or if we should add it at once.

I would like to have some more eyes on it to see for example if I should have some more or some less links, or if there is something I did not think of. I tried to use as few links as possible, while also keeping ones a new user might hope is there, but do not know where to look for.

When I feel content with it I will move it to the template namespace and add a site notice linking to it for a while, as I am not sure if you all look here or on Special:RecentChanges.

Anyway here is my current draft (do not hesitate to add suggestions on its discussion page): User:Johan G/Template:Welcome to the wiki

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 13:02, 15 April 2019 (EDT)

The template is now moved to {{Welcome to the wiki}}
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 18:19, 17 April 2019 (EDT)
Hi Johan,
The template looks good to me!
Gijs (talk) 06:48, 16 April 2019 (EDT)
It looks good to me too. What about using Extension:Create User Page to fully automate the process?
Bugman (talk) 09:57, 16 April 2019 (EDT)
If you mean as in automatically creating a user discussion page and adding the welcome template? Though it would probably be a good idea, as likely no one will be left without a welcome, it kind of feels better if it is done by a being of flesh and blood than if it was done by a bot. Consider me undecided. ;-)
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 18:13, 17 April 2019 (EDT)
It is a worry that the automation will not seem personal. However I just counted the new user registrations from 17/04/2018 to 17/04/2019. There are 113 registrations! Maybe 5% are not bots, but identifying these is hard. I think it will be too overwhelming for any individual to manually do this.
Bugman (talk) 01:43, 18 April 2019 (EDT)
One registration every second day. Automation might not be such a bad idea after all.
I noticed though that Extension:Create User Page does not create the user discussion page, which is where such messageboxes typically are placed. Maybe not a big problem.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 12:46, 19 April 2019 (EDT)
A site notice is now up with the text "Hi fellow wiki users!
To help new users get more familiar with the wiki (and maybe older users too) there is now a {{Welcome to the wiki}} template. Have a look at it and feel free to add it to new users discussion pages (and perhaps your own).
I have tried to keep the template short, but meaningful. /Johan G"
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 06:13, 26 April 2019 (EDT)


The lead section, or first section, as I have called it

Most of the time when I have been writing help pages I have tried to use the terminology used on Wikipedia and its sister projects, but somehow I have called the lead section (or lead or introduction) first section and done that consistently. I have gone through the help pages and changed that.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 08:56, 23 May 2019 (EDT)


Automated translation for the wikipedia template

Just for the record, I attempted to modify {{wikipedia}} to automatically determine the page language and point to the non-english Wikipedia page without the lang parameter. I have recently added the wikipedia parameter to {{infobox aircraft}} and was hoping to use the language auto-detection to have the wikipedia infobox link point to the correct translation at Wikipedia. I could not use {{PAGELANGUAGE}} as this required MediaWiki >= 1.29 (see [1]). So I unsuccessfully attempted to use the same logic as the {{LangSwitch}} parameter. I reverted all changes as there appears to be no way to correctly detect the page language (other than wait for the next MediaWiki upgrade to expose {{PAGELANGUAGE}}).

Bugman (talk) 05:51, 24 May 2019 (EDT)

Note that this means that the aircraft infobox wikipedia link can only point to the English page until an upgrade occurs (this is not urgent though).
Bugman (talk) 06:01, 24 May 2019 (EDT)