Difference between revisions of "FlightGear wiki:Village pump"

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(added section about the convert template)
(Needing an extra pair of eyes: Did not think of comparing namespace numbers between the templates. Using full namespace names is probably safer. Thank you so much for looking into this! :-)
 
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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]]|[[/Archive 2013|2013]]|[[/Archive 2014|2014]]|[[/Archive 2015|2015]]|[[/Archive 2016|2016]]}}
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{{Archives|[[/Archive 2012|2012]]|[[/Archive 2013|2013]]|[[/Archive 2014|2014]]|[[/Archive 2015|2015]]|[[/Archive 2016|2016]]|[[/Archive 2017|2017]]|[[/Archive 2018|2018]]|[[/Archive 2019|2019]]}}
 
{{shortcut|FGW:VP}}
 
{{shortcut|FGW:VP}}
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Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
 
Welcome to the '''Village Pump'''. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the [[FlightGear wiki]].
  
 
Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
 
Please <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} add new topics]</span> to the '''bottom''' of this page.
  
Old discussion should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
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Old discussions should be moved to a [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR]]. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.
  
== 2017 ==
+
== New Portal: Embedded or Hardware (02/2020) ==
=== Newsletter templates (June/2017) ===
+
Suggestion: Dedicated portal for articles relating to embedded/hardware topics (which would be in line with numerous threads on the forum, as well as existing articles on the wiki). - [[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 11:59, 17 February 2020 (EST)
  
Referring to Johan's comments at [https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=32405&start=15#p313099]:
+
: That is slightly less complicated than you might think. What you would do is to create a new page with the prefix <code>Portal:</code> and a suitable name, say for example [[Portal:Hardware development]], [[Portal:Cockpit hardware]] or [[Portal:DIY cockpit hardware]], or maybe [[Portal:Hardware]] if you would also like to see commercial hardware there, and then copy and modify the content from a similar portal.
Is there anything we can do to unify newsletters and changelogs without requiring major additions to the wiki in the form of plugins/addons ?
+
Specifically, I was wondering if something along these lines would be worthwhile to discuss:
+
  
* Create a basic template-based structure to add standardized announcements/news
+
: Hint: There is actually not a portal [[Help:Namespaces|namespace]], it is just a prefix. The portal pages are actually in the main namespaces, and thus function just like any other article page on the wiki.
* These would be standardized based on category (core, aircraft, scenery, canvas, Nasal etc), inspired by recent changelogs/newsletters
+
* Move specific text to sub-templates, so that we can easily localize/translate those using a handful of templates
+
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 13:35, 10 March 2020 (EDT)
* support optional screenshots/youtube links
+
* support optional fields to be added/excluded in a given mode (newsletter vs. changelog)
+
  
In other words, we would review our published newsletters and changelogs and determine the common structure that could be re-implemented in the form of templates, and then come up with a handful of templates to add items in a standardized fashion, e.g. along these lines:
+
: Though I think your [[Portal:Embedded]] might be more diffuse than [[Portal:Hardware]] for people that do not know what {{wikipedia|embedded software}} is, I have still added it to the main page and added [[:Category:Portals]] to it. It will get more use if people can find it. :-P
  
* category
+
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 04:16, 14 March 2020 (EDT)
* new/updated/removed feature
+
* headline
+
* common text
+
* changelog specific text
+
* newsletter specific text
+
* screenshots
+
* videos
+
* link for additional information
+
  
Something like this could be easily implemented without much wiki magic, and it could be also easily translated at the template level
+
== Use as few categories as possible ==
 +
Always use as few categories as possible.  Categories are a place in a structure rather than tags.  Putting each page in a lot of categories will put a lot of of pages in each category.  There is in particular no need to put a page in both a category and then in each category above that category.
  
Thoughts / ideas ?
+
Please see advice in [[Help:Your first article#Categories]] and maybe also [[Help:categories]].
  
-[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]]) 06:40, 2 July 2017 (EDT)
+
[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 13:04, 15 March 2020 (EDT)
  
: I will start slightly off topic with that I actually consider the current newsletter format to be slightly more complicated than it really needs to be. This is mostly due to the handcrafted table of contents replacing the automatically added one.  If we go back a few years a wiki newsletter page was done exactly as any other wiki page using the same way to add headers and with an automatically generated table of contents.
+
== Meta template and templates for commonly used logotypes and icons ==
 +
Through a placeholder page (ugh!) and a edit summary Hooray suggested making a template for commonly used logotypes.
  
: To illustrate the above, compare the [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_January_2010&action=edit|January 2010 newsletter] (plain article style, one template for the header), the intermediate [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_January_2011&action=edit|January 2011 newsletter] (one additional template to move the ToC right and change the text flow) and the later [http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_January_2015&action=edit|January 2015 newsletter] (discarding the automatic ToC for a handcrafted one using a template for each main section and subsections added by hand.)  Even if that is only so much resistance, it can be what stops a contributor.
+
{{cquote|placeholder/stub for all sorts of wiki related logos that may need to be updated over time, but that are referenced on multiple pages - so that we don't need to edit each and every page here.|2=[http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Template:Logo&oldid=123306 Hooray, 11 April 2020‎, 08:04]}}
 +
{{cquote|@Johan: could use your help with this, unless I can write the heuristics in Php or JavaScript ;-)|Hooray, 11 April 2020‎, 08:04}}
  
: What I was referring to with
+
I would guess you also intend it to be used for icons as well, for example the [[:Category:Ready icons|ready icons]]?  Logotype/icon templates might not be a bad idea.  Less typing is almost always good.
: {{cquote|I think it would be technically possible to make templates that could simplify adding new newsletter blanks (but I have said that for years without doing anything about it :oops: ).}}
+
: was that one can make templates that will import a page blank prepared with regular sections and subsections (that technique have been used on English Wikipedia for adding template documentation.)
+
  
: In essence such a newsletter blank could have some of this prepared and some commented out suggestions for how to add a new section and how to add images and embedded videos etc.
+
{{tl|logo}} should probably be a meta template, a template used by other templates in this case by logotype templates.  Meta templates are pretty common on MediaWiki wikis.
  
: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 09:14, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
+
Essentially, there could be a set of logotype and icon templates, for example {{tl|Compositor logo}}, {{tl|FGInterface logo}}, {{tl|Air refueling ready icon}} etc, that pass the image for the logotype, an alt text (for accessibility and when the image is not shown, for example due to browser settings) and a link to a relevant wiki page to {{tl|logo}}.  Possibly also optional parameters like other sizes etc.  The meta template would then add the boilerplate stuff around that and set the size.
  
::: I found my way back to some documentation on what I mentioned above.[https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php#Edit_and_submit][https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Creating_pages_with_preloaded_text]
+
I would advise that having a suffix indicating the type of template, for example ''logo'', ''icon'' like mentioned above or ''navigation'' (for navigation boxes), in essence having less ambiguous names, is generally a good idea.
  
::: One would basically make a subpage to the template (say <tt><nowiki>{{Newsletter-new}}</nowiki></tt>) with the text to be preloaded (which is the term used) on the subpage (<tt>Template:Newsletter-new/Newsletter_blank</tt>) and link to it like this <tt><nowiki>http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_<month>_<year>&action=edit&preload=Template:Newsletter-new/Newsletter_blank</nowiki></tt>.
+
I should mention that I am generally against placeholder pages.
  
:::The new newsletter template could simply have a link "Click here to create the next newsletter".  It needs to be on another page than the newsletter itself though, for example on a page describing how to contribute to the newsletter.
+
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 06:44, 12 April 2020 (EDT)
  
::: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 09:43, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
+
== UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited (cont. from 2015) ==
  
:: I totally agree, while I appreciate the appearance of the new newsletter template, I always found it cumbersome/tedious to actually edit the newsletter compared to the old way. And I am all for automation. Then again, we have been suggesting/requesting certain plugins to be installed, but unfortunately to no avail so far. Speaking in general, it would be great if we could identify some of the recurring tasks on the wiki and find a way to automate most of these. For instance, being able to add contents to one page that shows up on other pages would also be useful, as this could greatly simplify writing the changelog - imagine adding stuff to the newsletter, which is then automagically added to the proper changelog. However, as usual it seems manpower is our primary constraint, Curt does not seem to have the corresponding privileges here and Gijs is basically n/a these days. What is really needed is an additional wiki admin, someone with Simon's privileges. And I would suggest we nominate bugman for that position :-)  - [[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]])
+
While migrating my own unrelated MediaWiki instance, I may have stumbled upon "a" SQL issue blocking the creation of pages with non-latin characters in their titles. See:
  
::: Yikes, this actually works: http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_Newsletter_November_2020&action=edit&preload=Talk:Next_newsletter  -[[User:Hooray|Hooray]] ([[User talk:Hooray|talk]])
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* [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2015#UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited]]
 +
* [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2016#UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited]]
 +
* [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive 2019#Language flags on the main page]]
  
 +
If someone has access to the MySQL backend (command line or phpMyAdmin), could you check what the "Collation" of our database is set to?  For example:
  
== Using Template:Convert ==
+
<syntaxhighlight lang="sql">
 +
USE dbname;
 +
SELECT @@character_set_database, @@collation_database;
 +
</syntaxhighlight>
  
while looking at the [[Lockheed_Martin_F-35B_Lightning_II]], i noted the use of units that we could automatically have converted for us using the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Convert convert template] from wikipedia... i'm assuming that we can do that, right? so below is an example of how it would be used and how it would look... i've left the original entry in place for final result comparison...
+
Or in phpMyAdmin the collation is given in the database listing.  My guess is that we are not using UTF-8. That can be changed (after a backup) with:
  
<syntaxhighlight>
+
<syntaxhighlight lang="sql">
=== Performance Data ===
+
ALTER DATABASE dbname CHARACTER SET utf8 COLLATE utf8_general_ci;
* '''Maximum Speed:''' 1,200 mph {{convert|1200|mph|kt|abbr=on}}
+
* '''Rate of climb:''' classified
+
* '''Service Ceiling:''' 60,000 ft {{convert|60000|ft|m|abbr=on}}
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* '''Range:''' 1,200 mi {{convert|1200|mi|km|abbr=on}}
+
 
</syntaxhighlight>
 
</syntaxhighlight>
  
::=== Performance Data ===
+
Or in phpMyAdmin, select the databse of this wiki, click on the "Operations" tab, in the "Collation" box select "utf8_general_ci", and finally click on "Go".  Hopefully this is the cause of this long standing and painful issue.
::* '''Maximum Speed:''' 1,200 mph {{convert|1200|mph|kt|abbr=on}}
+
 
::* '''Rate of climb:''' classified
+
[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 03:33, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
::* '''Service Ceiling:''' 60,000 ft {{convert|60000|ft|m|abbr=on}}
+
 
::* '''Range:''' 1,200 mi {{convert|1200|mi|km|abbr=on}}
+
: Hi Edward,
 +
: I somehow missed all these previous reports :-( Sorry!
 +
: You're right. The database is in latin1. We're actually currently in the process of migrating some of our server work and updating. I will take care of setting the correct collation on that occasion.
 +
: [[User:Gijs|Gijs]] ([[User talk:Gijs|talk]]) 04:24, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
:: Great, that sounds exactly like this problem.  Only pages with 'latin1' characters in their names can be edited.  I really hope switching the collation to UTF-8 will fix the problem.  There must have been a MySQL server migration many years ago where the old database was UTF-8 and the import automatically changed the language to the server default of 'latin1', as many pages were created on this wiki with non-latin1 characters in the past.  I see this with my MySQL database too - I have to switch back to UTF-8 after import into the new SQL database.
 +
 
 +
:: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 06:00, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
== Needing an extra pair of eyes ==
 +
There is a problem with automatic categorization in {{tl|Autoflight Navigation}} that I can not seem to solve.
 +
 
 +
For details see [[Template talk:Autoflight Navigation#Automatic categorization seem broken]].
 +
 
 +
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 10:26, 10 September 2020 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
: All done!  In summary, the {{tl|howto other}} template logic was completely broken and was operating as the {{tl|main other}} template instead!  Checking if the {{obr}}NAMESPACE{{cbr}} is set to {{obr}}ns:0{{cbr}} is not how you check for the "Howto" namespace.  As I don't know the numeric value of this namespace, I switched to comparing {{obr}}NAMESPACE{{cbr}} to the simple string 'Howto'.  So the template is now fixed.  We should see a lot of auto-categorisation additions and fixes now.  I also switched {{tl|Autoflight Navigation}} to use {{tl|namespace detect}} to simplify its logic.
 +
 
 +
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 06:14, 11 September 2020 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
:: Thank you som much for fixing that. :-)
 +
:: Did not think of comparing the namespace numbers between the templates.
 +
:: I was wondering where I found the numbers, but could not quite remember.  If I figure it out I will probably add the source for those at a suitable place, like under ''Technical details'' in ducumentation for {{tl|namespace detect}} or something like that, though using full names of the namespaces is probably the safer option.
 +
:: —[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 02:07, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
== The Howto namespace ==
 +
: ''Copied here from [[Template talk:Autoflight Navigation]].''
 +
 
 +
To be honest, from the start I have considered the Howto namespace to be an abomination.  There is absolutely no need for it, as one could simply have articles in the main namespace with a Howto: prefix (IIRC they call this "user administered namespaces" or "pseudo namespaces" on Wikipedia). To not have to type the prefix, one could simply create redirects.  Creating a separate Howto namespace have caused issues in the past, like that the search function per default only looks for articles in the Main namespace.  It is not entirely unlikely that what we see here might be some configuration issue as well.
 +
 
 +
Sorry for the rant. And thanks again.
 +
 
 +
—[[User:Johan G|Johan G]] ([[User_talk:Johan_G|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Johan_G|contribs]]) 06:29, 11 September 2020 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
: I wouldn't call that a rant.  It would be better on [[FlightGear wiki:Village pump]] though.  To me 'Howto' here is simply a categorisation.  Why is that categorisation even needed in the page title?  I never liked this namespace, specifically because the default search misses it, and there is a significant grey area of what you would categorise as a 'howto' or not.  I think it would be better managed with a basic {{tl|howto}} template at the start of each of these articles which automatically adds [[:Category:Howto]].  If you take your discussion above over to the village pump, I'll copy this over there as well.
  
'''NOTE:''' i've copied this from my talk page to bring everything together here in one place as suggested on the forum by bugman...
+
: [[User:Bugman|Bugman]] ([[User talk:Bugman|talk]]) 07:56, 11 September 2020 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 02:08, 12 September 2020


Archives
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Shortcut
FGW:VP

Welcome to the Village Pump. This page is used to discuss the technical issues, operations and guidelines of the FlightGear wiki.

Please add new topics to the bottom of this page.

Old discussions should be moved to a FlightGear wiki:Village pump/Archive YEAR. These discussions can then be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate.

New Portal: Embedded or Hardware (02/2020)

Suggestion: Dedicated portal for articles relating to embedded/hardware topics (which would be in line with numerous threads on the forum, as well as existing articles on the wiki). - Hooray (talk) 11:59, 17 February 2020 (EST)

That is slightly less complicated than you might think. What you would do is to create a new page with the prefix Portal: and a suitable name, say for example Portal:Hardware development, Portal:Cockpit hardware or Portal:DIY cockpit hardware, or maybe Portal:Hardware if you would also like to see commercial hardware there, and then copy and modify the content from a similar portal.
Hint: There is actually not a portal namespace, it is just a prefix. The portal pages are actually in the main namespaces, and thus function just like any other article page on the wiki.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 13:35, 10 March 2020 (EDT)
Though I think your Portal:Embedded might be more diffuse than Portal:Hardware for people that do not know what embedded software This is a link to a Wikipedia article is, I have still added it to the main page and added Category:Portals to it. It will get more use if people can find it. :-P
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 04:16, 14 March 2020 (EDT)

Use as few categories as possible

Always use as few categories as possible. Categories are a place in a structure rather than tags. Putting each page in a lot of categories will put a lot of of pages in each category. There is in particular no need to put a page in both a category and then in each category above that category.

Please see advice in Help:Your first article#Categories and maybe also Help:categories.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 13:04, 15 March 2020 (EDT)

Meta template and templates for commonly used logotypes and icons

Through a placeholder page (ugh!) and a edit summary Hooray suggested making a template for commonly used logotypes.

Cquote1.png placeholder/stub for all sorts of wiki related logos that may need to be updated over time, but that are referenced on multiple pages - so that we don't need to edit each and every page here.
Cquote2.png
Cquote1.png @Johan: could use your help with this, unless I can write the heuristics in Php or JavaScript ;-)
— Hooray, 11 April 2020‎, 08:04
Cquote2.png

I would guess you also intend it to be used for icons as well, for example the ready icons? Logotype/icon templates might not be a bad idea. Less typing is almost always good.

{{logo}} should probably be a meta template, a template used by other templates in this case by logotype templates. Meta templates are pretty common on MediaWiki wikis.

Essentially, there could be a set of logotype and icon templates, for example {{Compositor logo}}, {{FGInterface logo}}, {{Air refueling ready icon}} etc, that pass the image for the logotype, an alt text (for accessibility and when the image is not shown, for example due to browser settings) and a link to a relevant wiki page to {{logo}}. Possibly also optional parameters like other sizes etc. The meta template would then add the boilerplate stuff around that and set the size.

I would advise that having a suffix indicating the type of template, for example logo, icon like mentioned above or navigation (for navigation boxes), in essence having less ambiguous names, is generally a good idea.

I should mention that I am generally against placeholder pages.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 06:44, 12 April 2020 (EDT)

UTF-8 language pages cannot be edited (cont. from 2015)

While migrating my own unrelated MediaWiki instance, I may have stumbled upon "a" SQL issue blocking the creation of pages with non-latin characters in their titles. See:

If someone has access to the MySQL backend (command line or phpMyAdmin), could you check what the "Collation" of our database is set to? For example:

USE dbname;
SELECT @@character_set_database, @@collation_database;

Or in phpMyAdmin the collation is given in the database listing. My guess is that we are not using UTF-8. That can be changed (after a backup) with:

ALTER DATABASE dbname CHARACTER SET utf8 COLLATE utf8_general_ci;

Or in phpMyAdmin, select the databse of this wiki, click on the "Operations" tab, in the "Collation" box select "utf8_general_ci", and finally click on "Go". Hopefully this is the cause of this long standing and painful issue.

Bugman (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2020 (EDT)

Hi Edward,
I somehow missed all these previous reports :-( Sorry!
You're right. The database is in latin1. We're actually currently in the process of migrating some of our server work and updating. I will take care of setting the correct collation on that occasion.
Gijs (talk) 04:24, 9 September 2020 (EDT)
Great, that sounds exactly like this problem. Only pages with 'latin1' characters in their names can be edited. I really hope switching the collation to UTF-8 will fix the problem. There must have been a MySQL server migration many years ago where the old database was UTF-8 and the import automatically changed the language to the server default of 'latin1', as many pages were created on this wiki with non-latin1 characters in the past. I see this with my MySQL database too - I have to switch back to UTF-8 after import into the new SQL database.
Bugman (talk) 06:00, 9 September 2020 (EDT)

Needing an extra pair of eyes

There is a problem with automatic categorization in {{Autoflight Navigation}} that I can not seem to solve.

For details see Template talk:Autoflight Navigation#Automatic categorization seem broken.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 10:26, 10 September 2020 (EDT)

All done! In summary, the {{howto other}} template logic was completely broken and was operating as the {{main other}} template instead! Checking if the {{NAMESPACE}} is set to {{ns:0}} is not how you check for the "Howto" namespace. As I don't know the numeric value of this namespace, I switched to comparing {{NAMESPACE}} to the simple string 'Howto'. So the template is now fixed. We should see a lot of auto-categorisation additions and fixes now. I also switched {{Autoflight Navigation}} to use {{namespace detect}} to simplify its logic.
Bugman (talk) 06:14, 11 September 2020 (EDT)
Thank you som much for fixing that. :-)
Did not think of comparing the namespace numbers between the templates.
I was wondering where I found the numbers, but could not quite remember. If I figure it out I will probably add the source for those at a suitable place, like under Technical details in ducumentation for {{namespace detect}} or something like that, though using full names of the namespaces is probably the safer option.
Johan G (Talk | contribs) 02:07, 12 September 2020 (EDT)

The Howto namespace

Copied here from Template talk:Autoflight Navigation.

To be honest, from the start I have considered the Howto namespace to be an abomination. There is absolutely no need for it, as one could simply have articles in the main namespace with a Howto: prefix (IIRC they call this "user administered namespaces" or "pseudo namespaces" on Wikipedia). To not have to type the prefix, one could simply create redirects. Creating a separate Howto namespace have caused issues in the past, like that the search function per default only looks for articles in the Main namespace. It is not entirely unlikely that what we see here might be some configuration issue as well.

Sorry for the rant. And thanks again.

Johan G (Talk | contribs) 06:29, 11 September 2020 (EDT)

I wouldn't call that a rant. It would be better on FlightGear wiki:Village pump though. To me 'Howto' here is simply a categorisation. Why is that categorisation even needed in the page title? I never liked this namespace, specifically because the default search misses it, and there is a significant grey area of what you would categorise as a 'howto' or not. I think it would be better managed with a basic {{howto}} template at the start of each of these articles which automatically adds Category:Howto. If you take your discussion above over to the village pump, I'll copy this over there as well.
Bugman (talk) 07:56, 11 September 2020 (EDT)